Childless Not By Choice Group

Hello sisters, wow, from your gathering description, makes me feel like joining you next time too, can i? heehee

By the way, alittle update about me. The last i was testing for auto immunity and karyotyping. The results was out last week. Everything is ok. So now, we are totally clueless why ivf didnt work for us and why the 2 miscarriages. Feel alittle pek chek at times also. Cuz if know whats wrong, at least still can know how to treat. But everything ok, how to know how else how to treat or improve chances? Feels like still standing in the dark and still feeling my way around. Sigh...

Anyway, guess can only humtum ivf all the way till succeed? I also dont know whats best. But dr already book me up for another cycle. Still thinking if i should proceed and whether still at KKH or somewhere else.
 


hello sisters

it was lovely meeting up with you gals last fri. wish we had more time to spend chatting.. too bad we had to go back to work.

Noi
Really peifu your determination and perseverance and never say die attitude. Hope that good news come your way soon..

Hopewaves
guess we can connect as we went through the same shit before. can understand the emotional roller coaster and stress that each of us are enduring or have endured before. I have met up with the gals from my MTB thread before and I find it very difficult to connect with them as we are not bonded by such a difficult and trying experience. Guess if we have never been through this journey, we would not have connected as well. It makes us appreciate things more and with that, i believe it will make us appreciate our babies or soon to be babies even more. till now, i still tear when i look at my boy sometimes. Anyway, all the best to your upcoming cycle or hope you have good news before that. Sorry. Still owe you the name of the wheatgerm extract i was telling you abt.

BabyG
Thanks for organizing. u are really an encyclopedia. Every time we meet up also got "door gift". Very kind of you.

Elle
one feisty lady. but still lovely meeting up with you.

Sunny
join us next time lah.. it will be fun!
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Heheheh.. i always recommend people to see Prof Ng Soon Chye for second opinion cause he is into research and stuff so he might have some other tests which are unheard of. at least that is my personal experience as the meds and procedure that he told me of previously was quite unheard of. No harm giving him a try?
 
Hi Hi sisters

Liz
Emmm, r u the sister which I used to chat often at the forum few yrs back??? From your nick, I suddenly remembered u…
Thanks for sharing your story with us…Hope one day I can proudly says “I’m a 幸 福 mom!”

Babygalore
Haven’t thank u for the book…謝謝妳!
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Hopewaves
Dun worry, I really a small eater…Is me who should be pai say to share the lunch with u. I used to be a very timid n shy girl, after what I went thru’ these few years, I had transform myself to a 不倒翁! :p

Sunny
Do join us when we have our next gathering!
 
noi
yap. i used 2 different nicks for different threads.. think i use the hopefulbaby one for the 2ww thread last time.
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faithbb
i think there are cases where the body's antibodies treats the foetus as a foreign object and they start attacking the foetus. thus causing miscarriages.
 
Liz, thxs for ur reply.
I was once in this thread but aft my failed IVF last yr I stopped coming to this forum cos jus wanna get my mind off this issue. I'm a much happier person nt thinking abt it but I hv to face this harsh reality n here i'm preparing myself for Fet this May or Jun period. I'm so stressed out lately n had such a terrible time w my DH cos I think I feel lousy abt myself. All my DH's friend got preg all except us n to think his friend can say dun u find Bb cute or is it we can't. It hurts damn alot! Luckily I hv an almighty god to shield me, they can mock at us but god kns, we will definitely be blessed w much more!
I actually had hypothyroid n my antibodies is out of the range n wondering if this could be the issue. I asked the endo specialist but he say can't get rid fr my body but he is saying it won't affect so wondering wat is this auto immunity test abt.
 
faithbb
can totally understand how you feel. but wah.. his friend a bit direct leh.. some people are totally insensitive and clueless. they really live in their own world. i also disappeared from the forum after my failed cycles too. it came to a point which i was so sick of the whole thing that i was just going through the motion of things. i.e i was going for my third cycle of IVF as i did not want to have regrets.

Anyway, u jiayou. well we go through all these so that we can be better parents than others cause we will love and appreciate our babies even more.. there is a study which proves that IVF babies are more intelligent than normal babies and that is because the parents will put in more effort.
 
Sorry faithBB for seeing your post late. Yes the auto immune testing includes antibodies testing to see if our bodies are at risk of rejecting foreign bodies like in a pregnancy thus causing miscarriages. I dont think my tests are a complete range though, i only see a few names in the results, i had expected a really long list. Hmm, maybe i got other defects not tested if this test isnt the comprehensive one.

If have antibodies issues, actually there are treatments to help cope, like using baby aspirin or IVGM (sorry cant remember the exact) that can be used together with ivf cycles. So hopes are not all lost though it does sound more challenging than usual cases.
 
ML, same as u. I dun want to hv regret when I look bk and hence decide to go ahead w FET. I'm excited abt it but also scared. In the meantime I try to do whatever I can to build up my health n go ahead w my FET in May/Jun.
This morn was checking my mail when I saw this person pm me asking me if I succeeded aft seeing tcm n the post was few yrs bk. I suddenly get very emotional aft seeing that mail cos here i'm struggling with it. Haiz...

Which hospital r u with? I'm w KK. Anyway let's strive for it. God will nt provide bareness to female n male. We will all be fruitful n multiply.
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Hopewaves
The wheatgerm extract name is Exsativa.

Faithbb
Sorry. I used the wrong nick. ML and Liz are both my nicks. I was with glenE under prof Ng but I managed to get preg naturally just before my 3rd cycle. Can understand how you feel. I always undergo an emotional breakdown when I hear of my friends getting preg one by one ESP when they always say it is by accident. Anyway are you with sf Loh? I heard that he got magic hands. Looking forward to your good news soon. Will be rooting for you gals!!!
 
Bingo and Faithbb,
When will you be starting ur ivf cycles? I'm thinking late May/ June. Hope we can be cycle buddies
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Noi will you be cycling soon as well?
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we can give each other support along the way!

Liz,
Thanks for the name of the wheatgerm extract. Been thinking abt the powerful royal jelly you mentioned, what is the name?
I'm taking the pill form now but doesn't sound as powerful as yours haha.. Yah I also agree that the rift between mums who conceive naturally and via assisted reproduction will always be there- even though I'm not a mum yet, I already feel like for those who conceive easily, they can never understand the pain we go through.

I had a chat with a friend yesterday who aborted twice before (she's not married and conceived with 2 different boyfriends) and she sounded quite casual about it, dun even sense any sadness or guilt from her. And she had the cheek to say she gets pregnant very easily cos she has a big butt. These are the times when I would look to God and say ," why huh?!!"

Anyway I went to sgh for the ivf counseling yesterday but was rejected because my Hubby didn't come with me (he stuck at work last min) haiz, so nex week gotta make another trip down.
 
Hopewaves
Lol. I bought the liquid form from gnc. Dunno why the pill form doesn't work on me. Btw the month I strike I also had a sudden craze for guavas. I was eating 1 big guava every 2 days. Then that cycle I remembered that I had many days of ewcm.

Ya. Sometimes u wonder why... I got friend's friend who went for abortion 3 times as her bf don't want to use protection. And here we are trying so hard to get preg and keep the baby -_-"""
 
Liz, thxs for ur encouragement! We all hv to strive for our desire.
Yes, I'm under Dr Loh. Magic didn't work leh. Hopefully this time will work, he advise I put 3 but the ins so ex. But I think I will do ahead. Even if triplets I also dun mind. :D

Hopewaves, I also intend to do my FET ard May/Jun. We can be cycle buddies. Feel free to ask anything u are unsure n we will try clarify for u.

We all face the same situation. N to think my ex-colleague can say wanna abort cos 2nd one she wanna gal but kena boy again. Feel like slapping her. N she kena preg aft 3mths of trying n we donkey yrs. So unfair but j believe god had better plans for us, hv to be positive.
 
Hi ladies

Hopewaves, FaithBB, i may be your cycle buddy too, that is, if doctors still allow me to cycle in May/Jun.
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Was already preparing for it in terms of like planning what supplements to start eating from now, when to start intensive ACU and putting aside finances etc .. all gearing up for May/Jun then today ...

Went to do a SIS just now and the doctor suspect i might have a polyp.
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Her reports will be out next week to confirm. If true, i might have to remove it before i can cycle. If assuming i remove in Apr, dont even know whether will heal in time to start ivf in May. What a damper!

Anyone here removed polpys before can help me with a few questions? I am only meeting doctor in 2nd week Mar, want to research now so that i wont leave out things to ask during my consultation.

- is removal of polyps a simple outpatient hysteroscopy procedure (internet says so)?
- which day of cycle can we remove?
- how long after removal can we start TTC?
- cost of removal procedure?

Thanks very much in advance for any help/info!

One thing i am perplexed is how come so many doctors in past 5 years, none detected a polyp at all? I think my polyp may also be a consequence of ivf cuz too much estrogen from ivfs.
 
I just left office.. Damn tired after whole day of work. TCM doc say supposed to be BD today but no mood plus so exhausted haiz. At this rate dunno how to ever get pregnant..
 
Sunny, IVF got so much side effects, sounds scary. Wish we can all graduate soon n dun hv to subject so much pain n torture.

Hopewaves, I fully agree w u. My DH is always tired, think 1 mth only once, wanna stoke naturally??? I must be dreaming.
 
Sunny

Just saw you message, i removed my polyps in 2009 before i start my ivf. Dr Loh advised me to removed prior doing ivf. Let me try answer your queries as the op was done 2 years ago, can't really remember alot of details.

- is removal of polyps a simple outpatient hysteroscopy procedure (internet says so)?
The removal is a day surgery. you will be inserted a pill into your v to dilate. and thereafer under GA go through the procedure. Liuke what internet says is a hysteroscopy. Once you are awake and the effects of GA is gone, you can go home. To me it's like going through ER during IVF. Coz under GA, u dun feel a thing. I didn't feel any pain and there was some light bleeding after the procedure.

- which day of cycle can we remove?
I can't remember when ...but i think it doesn't matter? coz the surgery was fixed by dr loh when i had my first appt. He just said i go through this procedure on this date if i didn't strike naturally that mth.

- how long after removal can we start TTC?
5 days HL were given. TTC only allowed after 2 weeks of the procedure.

- cost of removal procedure?
Cost about $900 at KKH.

I knew i have polyps when i see the gynae at TMC but her advice was not necessary to remove. When I see Dr Loh, he advise to remove as may affect implantation during IVF.
 
hopewaves
hahaha.. ya. last time is literally force ourselves to BD during O time. shack manz! Think never strike because the soldiers all too tired to swim liaoz.. :p
 
Babygalore, I hv not come in this thread for a long long time as it seems “deserted” for quite some time…Guess I hv miss the meet up….u girls must hv a fun time…

I am currently 20 weeks and is expecting 2 boys…

Congrats die on your baby boy!!!

To the rest of the ladies, JIA YOU and dun give up….sorry, not able to post much recently as I am real real tired with this pregnancy…will try to come in here again when I feel more perked up…

BABYDUSTS TO ALL!
 
Oh thanks Gan! You helped me know roughly what to ask Dr Loh. I hope he allows me to remove in Mar so that i can recover in time for another ivf cycle in May. I hope like no need within certain days of cycle kind then at least i can do asap! Thanks dear!
 
Noi,
Pls don't mention at all
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Its my honour to share and learn at the same time, these are not patronizing words loh, these are from the bottom of my heart
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I enjoy doing all the research and I also benefit myself by researching. Yeah, I fully agree with Hopewaves that you are gentle by nature yet tough inside.



Hopewaves,
Yeah, that day I really hope we had all taken half day off and can continue to yak. If Liz had not pointed out the time, I really forgot to go liao! I will arrange for another lunch again soon. U all are the girls I can connect well with too because I believe our experience have somehow made us into better persons. U also don't mention about the book, my job is merely to provide the book and your job is harder, to read!..heheee..its a good book as its positive and holistic way looking at things and also teaches us how to cope with that inner voice. Wei, I thought of the very good question u posted again leh. It’s a good question u ask loh: Is it true that we can only conceive only after we give up and continue with life? As agree by most sisters that day, people who are trying (including me then) just cannot buy this idea of giving up and then strike suddenly Even now, I still don't buy this idea. I thot about it and its not about giving up but letting go. There seems to be very little difference between these two phrases in English but it is a world of difference in attitude. Sisters who are trying must never give up on the idea that we can be parents one day but at the same time, must slowly let go of the idea that having no kids is an imprefection. We can still be perfect human beings with or without kids as long as we have a good and clear conscience to the best of our efforts. We must still stay alive inside there just for ourselves. That was my mentality when I wrote the first posting and is still the mentality now.



Sunny,
Raise hands and legs on your joining us next time. Of course you can come lah. All the more welcome
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Then we will make u guess who is who..heheheee..

Yes, you are right, the best way now is to "humtum" and keep trying and also keep praying. If you are unsure about which clinic to go to for next cycle, how about asking your hubby, sometimes getting more support will enhance the confidence and the feel good factor that is important. If you can come for next outing, the other sisters can also act kaypoh and provide they two cents worth about where is good/bad in this and that..
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Since now already found no lead to fertility issues, it can be a good problem in itself. Maybe next step is to keep eating well, living well? Do it for yourself too k
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U deserve to eat well and live well for yourself and overall health
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Liz,
I am glad to know you and it still seems like yesterday that we met up for the first time at cityhall
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I am very grateful that our generation gets the luxury of knowing friends via forum. Imagine older generation women who have to experience what we experience yet must suffer in silence quietly. Cannot imagine that kind of life in fact.



FaithBB,
Pls take what ur hb friend said as flying kite. He is somehow insulting himself by asking this kind of question. Next time he ask again, tell him that he is brainwashed by the old school taught of in life, must marry and have kids and have grandkids. Tell him when u want to have kids, you will, don't need him/her to be a family planning policeman. Don't feel bad about feeling bad, its normal but don't feel bad for too long k. yeah, agree with Liz, you must jiayou
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FaithBB and Hopewave,
Yes, I firmly believe god has the right plan for people who are willing to strive for it. The part of the masterplan is to mold two good moms to be here. Jiayou
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And hopewaves, you are a confident girl and must keep that confidence k
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Don't let this babymaking affect that confidence of yours
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Gan,
Wei!!! *wave wave* I was writing a reply to you in the other thread until I had to stop for a report. Its still in my draft…how are u?? Really miss "talking" to you. I did not PM you for the outing as I did not want to stress u during this period when you are caring for baby alone. It’s a very siong period as it was for me earlier on. Say if we meet for lunch on a weekday (fri most likely as weekend must let my mum rest from bb), see if you can join us k
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Rostrum,
Wei also!!!!!!
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Good good, good to hear you are doing so well. Its very tiring definitely, especially since u have twice the hormones. Two princes!
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) In future when we have chance to meet up, can I carry them? I love newborns
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You probably feel zombified everyday right? Cannot even think well right..Yeah, we had a good time but same as Gan, I did not PM you since I do not want to stress u to come during you most physically trying period. For the nxt outing, I will broadcast here and also PM u too once the dates are confirmed. But pls don't feel stress to come, only come if you are not zombified that day…heeeeee…
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Elle aka big eye girl
Where are u?
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I have take the liberty to give you a nick of big eye girl heheeeee..



Sisters,
Here are the proposed date for our next outing:
25 Mar (Fri, Lunch)
Either Orchard or Somerset or City

1 Apr (Fri, Lunch too)
Either Orchard or Somerset or City


For Silent readers who want to come for chitchat/complaining of kaypoh people whom we can to strangle ;p, can always PM me.
 
BabyG,
Thxs for ur encouragement! I just simply uplift my desire to God n i kn i will definitely be blessed much mOre than bad mouth ppl like them.
Nw planning wat to do n eat to build up myself bef my FET.
Enjoy ur motherhood!
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Hi sisters,
 
Wanna share this article with you all..
http://infertility.about.com/b/2010/12/28/what-women-with-infertility-cancer-hiv-and-chronic-pain-have-in-common-and-why-few-understand-it.htm
 
This is an excerpt from it:
I'm pretty sure that if you asked someone, "Which would you rather experience, infertility or cancer?" the majority of people would say infertility. (If you've experienced both and disagree, feel free to comment on this blog.) Mainly because people want to live, even if their lives are difficult.
 
But this doesn't change the levels of emotional stress they may experience. A disease being life-threatening doesn't always lead to deeper depression or higher levels of stress. In fact, I know a few people who became life-lovers after cancer. Staring death in the face made them appreciate this world more.
 
At the same time, I know those suffering from infertility who had such deep levels of distress and depression that they considered suicide. And, sadly, some people do commit suicide from untreated infertility-related depression.
 
So who could possibly judge "who has it worse"?
 
Another thought I had was that while infertility does not threaten your life, it does threaten your genetic continuation. In other words, if you never have biological children, your gene pool stops with you. It's a sort of death of the future generations. I can't say how conscious we are of this aspect of infertility, but it's there.
 
My point here isn't to prove to anyone that infertility can bring on the emotional pain levels of cancer, HIV, and chronic pain. Research has already done so. I just am wondering out loud why so many people who have not experienced infertility have trouble considering that this may be true.
 
I have a theory, however. If we compare the stress levels of friends and family, those who love someone with cancer or infertility, I suspect it's much harder for the cancer patient's support circle. No one wants to see their friend die or visibly suffer during treatment.
 
On the other hand, as many fertility challenged people know, friends and family rarely feel distressed over infertility in a loved one. The emotional (and physical) pain tends to be less visible, and therefore, much harder for others to feel empathy towards.
 
Although I also cannot claim that I know how people with cancer feels, but I like the part that talks about how it'll be appreciated if people can show more empathy and sensitivity towards IF people.
 
It reminds me of a lady in church who recently had cancer. Upon knowing that, the church prayed for her every service, rallied behind her, encouragement and flowers poured in, she had many visitors and well wishers, and when she did recover, she was a "hero" in everyone's eyes. Everything little she did was seen by everyone to be a victory, like being able to come to church etc. Of course I am 100% happy for her that she has recovered fully, but I can't help but think about the contrast that we infertility patients face.
 
People just dunno how to act with us/ around us, it seems like they are treading on eggshells someimes, and it also makes us feel uncomfortable. Feelings are often invalidated and misunderstood because "What's so bad about not being able to have a child yet?" or "You're still so young!" etc..
 
Anyway.. just to rant. Babygalore, great to hear from you again. I'm ok for both dates, p prefer Orchard area
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Thanks for organizing again! Hope more pple can come this time
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Hi ladies, long time didnt come in.. Hello to everyone.

Babyg, i wish to join for lunch but wkdays is no good for me.

Hi hopewaves, juz wana gv a alittle insight to ur above posting. Being in the medical profession n ever worked in an environment where u saw death everyday. Being fertility changed myself, i know we have to face lots of stress from surrounding people who dun understand us but despite that i have never forgot to thanks god that i m still healthy now. So wat i wan to say is dun compare cancer vs fertility. The reason y ppl dun understand how we feel is not everyone go thru this...

ps: pls dun be offended, juz wan u to feel like stress towards this l
 
Hi Sisters,

I have been very busy with work lately. Quite a bit of firing fighting but still keeping sane..heeeee..


FaithBB,
Thanks
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While enjoying motherhood, I am also trying to take care of myself. Will start my home yoga practice section soon. U must also take care eat well and if got time, do some light exercises like brisk walking, helps to get the blood circulating to the right places. Babydust to u and good luck for your FET.


Bingo,
I have yet to reply to ur previous posting. I not writer loh..heehee..I was telling Noi that I just a kiasu self-made fertility researcher, I am a stock researcher by profession and its occupation hazard.

Congrats on your tough resolution. I admire that resolution of urs and ur decisiveness. And I also respect ur hubby for being so supportive and not hesitant to be take on the forgotten role of a traditional man - to support the household. U must really pat ur hubby on the back. I have ever come across hubbies who discourage their wives from taking leave to do amino, scare their wives' bosses angry. Imagine that. So u finished your last day at ur current work place liao? Will really look forward to seeing u soon
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Hopewaves,
Hey, I like that writer of the article u recommended very much, have read her stuff several times and she is a fellow "fertility struggler" like us. I fully understand the "death of future generations" she wrote because that pain did pierce my heart before. When I was doing the ivf and the nuh embryologist called me to inform that all the about 6 embryos could not be used due to arrestment, I looked at my hubby's childhood photo that was displayed in a frame and I cried. The same thought flashed across my mind that my hubby's genes was going to die with him and I would never be able to know how his offsprings would look like. That pain was worst than doing an op without LA which I did before. At that point in time, I felt being meted a death sentence and it took me a few days of staring at his childhood photo (everytime I stare, feel like cying) before I could face that photo head on without feeling like crying. So I know where u are coming from. Then I pyscho myself that since I was being forced to "die", I must take revenge and treat myself and hubby even better. If life don't want to compensate me, I compensate myself.

Different people will have different way of dealing with this "death" but agree that it’s a formless death that its made worse by our social circle, not better. For "legitimate" illness like cancer, the society empathsize with the sufferers but on the other hand, for "illegitimate" illness like not being able to have kids with ease, instead of being shown empathy, I am sure many of use here have kena these kind of comments, "cannot have babies? , what did you eat wrong?", "aiyo, you must be overly stress lah", "don't work so hard, u and ur hubby must be too career minded, family planning is important leh", "never go on holiday izzit, go on holidays to make babies easier lah". Totally no sympathy at times, just the assumption that we must have done something wrong to deserve this. Why others can have kids like popping buns, you all cannot heh?

Actually there should be an association for fertility challenged folks but not even in the more open western societies. But luckily we still got internet so much easier for us to know fellow members, cannot imagine who women of past generations have to put up with this.

No problem for setting up the gathering. K, k, lets meet around orchard area, good excuse for me to get away from CBD too
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Lyn,
Really miss you you know
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I know weekday lunch u cannot but in future just in case your boss goes on holiday and u can take leave on weekday, must must preempt me asap so I can plan something.

Understand and fully agree what you mean by be thankful that although we are fertility challenged, but at least we are healthy. That's what I psycho myself to think whenever I feel down to appreciate life more. Just that I also agree with what the article implied, that being fertility challenged it’s a pain that warrants access to a "Lioncity Fertility Challenged Club that has nice swimming pool and spa to compensate us for having to brave thru all those needles. Daydreaming a bit here…heheee..Just that hope in our living years, society will evolve to the stage when one can openly declare that one is fertility challenged and not be judged unfairly or be viewed with tinted glasses. At least let MILs stop thinking that the fault always lie with the women.


Sisters,

Here's an update on who can come for outing:

25 Mar: Elle, hopewaves, bingo, myself

1 Apr: Liz, hopewaves, bingo, myself


I am sending PM to sisters who might want to come. Will update u girls soon. Will probably go for the day that majority can come.
 
Hi Lyn,
Thanks for sharing your thought! I hope I didn’t sound too negative in the post and affected anyone, apologies if I did =P I totally agree with you that cancer is a traumatic life occurrence and there is no way we can compare infertility with cancer, it is like comparing apple and orange. . I think cancer patients have their fair share of suffering which again we will never understand. Guess I was more like exploring the different responses that outsiders give to cancer patients and infertility patients and hope that more empathy can come our way too! Seems like US is more advanced in this area.. Asians are still not very good in sharing feelings and being empathetic I feel..
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By the way I totally agree with you that health is important and we should give thanks daily that we are healthy. There are several things that we can be grateful everyday too- we just need to always train ourselves to be positive. Esp now with the disaster that is happening in Japan, all the more we can’t allow ourselves to be self-focused on our comfort zones and ignore the catastrophe that is hitting thousands in other parts of the world, people who are hungry, cold, tired, lost their loved ones or in danger of losing their own lives. I learnt to see my life in context, that perhaps I shouldn’t pine so much for a baby that doesn’t yet exist to the point that I fail to lend a hand to real people around me who needs my help.
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Babyg sorry no time to type out a response now to your post but as usual.. reading ur post is like an "enlightenment" to me.
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Next Friday will be better for me now that something has cropped up for this Friday.. Look forward!
 
Hey Hopewaves,

No problem, don't have to reply, just read read at ur pleasure k
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Hey sisters,
Update on gathering:

25 Mar: Elle, bingo, myself

1 Apr: Liz, bingo, hopewaves, noi, myself.

From the look of it, 1 Apr is more likely.

I have also PMed sisters who have written recently, waiting for replies.
 
Morning sisters,

Our gathering confirmed on 1 Apr in Orchard Road (makan place to be decided later) at about 12pm.

Special guests: Liz, bingo, hopewaves, noi, Lynn (she will try to make time) and myself yah!
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See u all
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Rostrum, Gan and Sunny, join us next time
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Hi sisters..

I just went to SGH yesterday to sign the consent forms for ivf with the doc, most likely starting in May. Just in dilemma now, cos' based on the tests done for hubby's SA, everything is ok but there is "binding percentage" portion in his sperm that was not very good so doc suggested for ICSI instead. She said there is a chance that the sperm cannot fertilize the eggs.. and the eggs collected will be wasted.

We are hesitant cos' apparently ICSI babies have higher incidence of birth defects etc, than normal ivf babies, which the doc also confirmed. I think it is due to the penetration of the sperm by a needle and also sperm is chosen by the embryologist rather than natural selection where the "strongest" will survive. Hence the sperm chosen may not be as good quality. Apparently the doc said up to half of all ivfs done in Spore are ICSI.

Since it's our 1st time, do you think we should just go ahead with ivf first? But then again, ICSI has a higher percentage of success.. We are not sure what to do. Any advice is greatly appreciated. Thanks!
 
Hey Hopewaves,

You and ur hubby are correct to take all points into consideration and have raised a valid concern that is confirmed by ur gynae. If I am u doing ivf for the 1st time, I would also have this concern. Just purely my thinking, this is what I would do if in your situation.

I would go for ICSI because
1. If the embryologist really by mistake choose a less than ideal sperm,it might not even be able to fertilise the egg, that explains for sometimes low fertilisation rate even for ICSI. Even if the egg is fertilised, a less than ideal sperm may result in less than ideal embryo that will arrest even before transfer. In that sense, a natural selection process is in place even for ICSI. Hence, the fertilisation and cell division process that takes place by nature only after manual injection of the sperm will also help to ensure the fittest survive.

2. Its true that the physical act of having to inject the sperm might cause a subtle damage to the sperm and eventual embryo. But the fertilsation and cell division processes will act as a filter to sieve out the seriously damaged ones and supposedly if there are less seriously damaged one that continues to develop and gets transferredeventually (touch wood), given that they can survive through 1st, 2nd and 3rd trimesters and each trimester is a test of the fetus's fittest level with trimester one being the toughest test, the damage could even be cosmetic and so insignificant.

3. It is difficult to predict what birth defects may result for every pregnancy. Even the most ideal pregnancy (a natural pregnancy between one young and fit couple) can result in a birth defect sometimes. So weighing the costs and benefits of a costly, emotionally heavy ivf, I would put my bet on ICSI that has higher success rates.

Again, it is ur personal choice and only u and ur hubby can decide. Hope other sisters who have done a few cycles can give some insights. I am just speaking for myself and to give u some alternative thoughts. Hope u can finally make the right decision for urself and be happy with it
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Jia you for this IVF cycle and hope its will be ur first and last IVF cycle and strike twins!
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Hi All,

Warmest regards!

I made a few posts last year after my failed ivf and have been a silent reader most of the time. Would like to give my inputs on Hopewaves' concerns.

Besides agreeing with babyglore, I would also like to add on to the emotional aspect.

When we (my hub and I)embarked on ivf, it was with the hope of having a healthy baby to bring home. While ICSI babies have higher risk of birth defects, it was a risk we were willing to take. We wanted to do all we can to increase the possibility of success. I yielded few eggs and if we didn't go through ICSI, there may not be any to transfer. With the few embryo with ICSI and none to freeze, it was already demoralising enough for me. I am sure I would have broken down if there was none to tranfer.

Also, I was told by my doc that ICSI will automatically be done if few eggs were retrieved.

For Hopewaves' case, if you managed to retrieve many eggs, perhaps you can consider half for ICSI and half for normal ivf?

Jiayou, Hopewaves!
 
Hi girls,

I am a silent reader of this thread. I am motivated by the girls here. Some girls seem to be upset when their menses come. But I will be more than happy because my menses is super irregular as it comes once or twice a year. I am currently seeing a doctor & hope to make it regular. So I am in no position now to even think of whether I am able to conceive or not.So compared to the girls here, I should be considered the worst case. But perhaps there are girls who are facing a even more worse situation than me.

I am truly motivated when I read Babygalore's attitude towards fertility. I want to be as positive as her. Afterall, I do not know what will happen tomorrow. Therefore, I want to live life to the fullest and appreciate the present.Appreciate the small little things.

Girls, do not be despaired. As long as your menses is more or less regular, there will be hope to conceive. Though I have not created any miracles myself, I hope one day I will.I believe the power of the mind will change one's destiny.

Here's something which I personally like "Man sacrifices his health in order to make money.Then he sacrifices his money to recuperate his health.He is anxious about the future that he doesn't enjoy the present.As a result,he doesn't live in the present or the future.He lives as if he's never going to die, he dies having never really lived."
 
Hopewaves
Just go for the ICIS. Because it may be the sperm binding issue that might have resulted in needing IVF. It only means a higher incidence but it doesn't mean that it will definitely happen! I have heard of friend's friend who not only did ICIS but had to do assisted hatching as well and she ended up with twins. Your goal now is to get pregnant. worry about other things later. cause once u are preg whether natural, IVF or ICIS, the worries are endless!!! So jia you!!!

Personally, when i was doing my IVF, i didn't consider the other factors cause all I wanted to do was to get pregnant. and since as advised by my doc that ICIS was my best chance, i just went with the flow.

Like what babyG said, a lot of things are beyond our control. Whichever decision and path we take, we will have to be comfortable with it ourselves.

Btw, for the sperm binding issue, ask hubby to take wheatgerm extract and Vit E. It solved my hubby's problem in 3 months. the passing rate was 80% and my hubby's results was 50%. After taking it for 3 mths, he managed to achieve 80%.


piglet
welcome! A positive attitude is a good start. Jia you! May good news come your way soon. btw, did you go for any checkups to see what may be the issue?
 
Hey BabyG, Dana and Liz, thanks a lot for offering your advice. it really helps me to make an informed decision. You guys are right- I shouild do anything to help me increase the chances, I'll have much more to worry abt nex time.
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Liz, I shall go and buy the Exsativa you mentioned today, hope that will be the "miracle" antidote for my hubby's problem!But hor, he is also taking some antibiotics for an infection in his sperm for 3 weeks, dunno if it can be taken concurrently. All along thought the problem was with me so was a bit sad when issues also arose from his side.. but anyways, we'll keep moving ahead, no looking back for now.

Dana, we considered the possibility of doing half half with Dr Yong from SGH, but she was not for it as she said that so far there hasn't been any success cases with it. So guess that is also not an option for us.

Piglet, I loved your positive quote. It was uplifting and sobering for the start of a week. Like what Liz mentioned, have you seen a doc abt the condition? Hope to hear more from you and let's jia you together
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FaithBB, sunflower and bingo, I recall you guys saying that you will be doing ivf this May/ June too? Excited to find cycle buddies. Do keep us posted and I'll be rooting for you guys too.. how wonderful it is if all of us can strike together!

See you gals this Friday
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hopewaves
no issues. i think my hubby was taking that together with the antibiotics. jia you! must take Vit E also. see ya on fri. looking forward to our lunch!
 
Dear Ladies,

As I mentioned yesterday, I am mostly a silent reader. However, would like to express my gratitude and appreciation for this forum and the wonderful gals here!

It has provided great comfort and support during my failed ivf attempt late last year. While I do not post much, I read a lot
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All of you are so knowledgable and positive that I feel that I can't contribute much.

I have met with another different experience recently, for my ttc journey. I managed to conceive naturally after 2 failed ivf attempts. Unfortunately, the happiness was shortlived. Miscarried in only 8 weeks and did evac of uterus 2 weeks ago. Was sitting on the emotional roller coaster again and wondering how to get off, despite knowing that I should buck up.

Today is 2 weeks after the proc and I sort of decided that enough is enough. Was looking around for inspiration and motivation. Decided to re-read the archives of this forum. They are still inspiring despite the fact that it is not the first time I have read them.

While I can't guarantee I can remain "sane" and "up", but I really hope so. And I attribute a large part of me, able to pull through each trial to this forum.

I want to thank BabyG for setting up this forum and all for contributing. I am sure your sharing has benefitted a lot of us, who are not having it easy in the ttc dept.

BIG THANKS!!!!
 
Clarification:
Paisei. the Exsativa is not wheatgerm extract. I blur liaoz. it is some powdered green oats etc etc. my hubby was taking some wheatgerm extract one point in time. got mixed up.. oops!

Dana
Sorry to hear abt your loss. can't possibly imagine the pain you must have felt or still feeling. Although I have not been through it before, would still be able to lend a listening ear. The TTC journey is not an easy one... even more so for gals like us. Hope you will feel better soon... take your time to grief...
 
Hi ladies, thanks BabyG for the PM to notify on our meeting. I had to miss it, trust that you gals had a great time!

I went for my polyp & adhesions removal last fri. Turned out polyp too small to be seen/sort of cant find it so doc did a D&C instead. Now am still spotting and trying to recover. Think ivf is far from me now, i have to regularise my cycles and i am not sure if my womb heal well. It was 1 week after AF when D&C so lining would have been really thin then still D&C i wonder if anything is left after scraping the already thin lining? Kinda worried now. Anyone know how i should take care of my womb now?

Dana, i am kinda like you now. Kinda coming to terms with 'enough is enough'. I conceived twice with ivf but lost both, so what makes me so hopeful next ivf i can conceive again and wont lost it? Kinda in self denial. Hope to think properly before i throw in the towel. Hb on the other hand, still very optimistic and hopeful though. Strange one when we first started ivf he was restless now i almost want give up, he wants to press on. Sigh
 
Hi Liz,
Thanks. Actually felt better already. Was sick and tired of crying and being sad. Re-read the archives of this forum and am determined to live my life again.
Although our obstacles in the tcc journey are diifferent, no one has it easier than others. You jiayou too!

Hi Sunny,
Pls excuse me if I am wrong, are you also at the forum for support group for miscarriage too? Think I have read about your experience. You are a strong gal!

What happened? Whay do you need to do a D&C for polyp & adhesions removal?

After my proc, I did a mini-confinement. It just ended today. Lots of chicken/pork with sesame oil and ginger. But mine is not a strict confinement, I still showered and drink plain water. Just watched my diet. No seafood and cold stuff. It is important to 'bu' after the proc.

Are you seeing tcm? Your tcm should be able to give you soem medication to 'tiao' your womb.

I totally understand how you feel. For me, I was also questioning the significance of my latest experience. A sign to stop (so what if I conceive, it will not last for 9 mths) or a sign to continue trying (yeah, I conceive naturally)? Nonetheless, I think we are not in a clear state of mind to make the decision of whether to go on or stop. Take some time to calm down. There is no hurry.

My husband is also like yours. He was also initially resistant to us starting ivf whereas now, he is the one who is saying to keep trying. Guess, that's why they are our pillars of strength
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You must take good care of yourself, physically and psychologically.
 
Hi Liz & Hopewaves,

The doctor diagnosed my condition as PCOS. My menses was induced to arrive promptly after I took their prescribed some western medicine. However,I stopped the medication after 3 months and decided to take the Chinese medicine as I am not so comfortable with taking western medicine in the long term as I heard there are more side effects.The Chinese doctor said that I have hormone imbalance and cold womb.Besides taking their chinese medicine,I am advised to stay away from cold & raw food & also to avoid being too stressed up and anxious.Initially,I was upset. But after reading some books & reading this thread,I decide that being overly upset will worsen my condition.If I stay happy, my cells will also be happy.Then they will work hard to balance back my system.It is just like the cells are my employees.If I treat them well,they will work hard.I have mistreated my cells previously. The Chinese medicine works for me.However, whenever I got stressed up, my menses will go hay wire again.So I must work really hard on letting go.I am going to read the quote everyday to remind myself of enjoying the present and treat my cells better.

Does removing polyp help to regulate menses or increase chance of conceiving?

Have anyone ever wondered why it is so easy for the third world countries to have high birth rates, though they face poverty & malnutrition? Besides the point that they have less birth control measures, I believe it is due to their simple life styles.Generally, when life is more simple,there is lesser stress.While they probably focus on a few things,we probably have one thousand and one matters in our mind.When we feel so stressed up,whatever we eat will not be absorbed properly.

Hi Dana,

It's good to cry it out.All the stress will be released.After going through the obstacles, you have reborn with a new you and a new beginning. Jia You!

What's ICIS? How is it different from IVF?
 
dana
good to hear that u are feeling better. Jia you!

Piglet
it's great that chinese meds work for u. for me, totally useless.

Removing of polyps increases the chances of pregnancy cause for certain cases, the polyps affects the implantation. it does not help to regulate menses as menses are usually a hormone thing. Btw, if PCOS case, maybe u can try royal jelly. I have PCOS, my menses can come once in 3 months. I am also diagnosed with insulin resistant which affects the quality of the eggs. So i was put on metaformin, a diabetic medicine. And i took royal jelly for 3-4 months. then my menses shorten to about 35 days for certain cycles. That's when i managed to conceive my boy.

ICIS is where a sperm is chosen and injected into the egg. IVF is where the sperms and the egg are left in a petri dish and natural fertilization is allowed to take place. ICIS is usually used when male factor infertility is the problem and there are few eggs. the purpose is to increase the chances of fertilization.
 
Hi Piglet,

Thanks! You jia you too! Or rather, you must relax...

To put it simply, for IVF, eggs and sperms are left on a dish to be fertilised in the lab. ICSI takes a step further. A sperm is injected into a egg to increase the chance of fertilisation.

It is good that you are taking tcm to improve your condition. I also believe tcm is more wholistic in healing and less drastic. Used to prefer western medicine for the immediate effect but have since changed my thinking after I start ttc-ing.

Re why third world countries have higher birth rates, I think age and personal belief play a part. For us living in a modern city and being educated, we have been conditioned since young that we can achieve as women. Yet, there is still a traditional role of wife and mother to play. We leave school late, want to achieve career stability and financial foundation. By the time we decide to start a family, it is late compared to our counterparts in third world countries.

Furthermore, we are also feeding on more man-made food and exposed to more chemicals. These may have undesirable effect on our bodies.

Of course, there are also many ladies who do not have to go through the difficult path but I guess, more and more are fertility challenged.
 
hi Dana, yes i was at the Miscarriage thread for awhile, was hoping to learn how to cope and recover. As for my D&C, actually it was unexpected. I went for a Saline Infusion Sonography early Mar and discovered a small polyp and some filmy adhesions. Might have been results of previous miscarriages not healing well and/or too much estrogen during ivf cycles. Doc say can do a hysteroscopy and just remove. But on day of surgery, i was told he cant find the polyp and thus did a D&C to scrap everything out.

Oh dear, i didnt do any mini confinement leh. I still eat like normal and drink cold drinks leh. I even went for a movie and felt cramps and saw blood then quickly go home rested till now dont dare go out. I read after D&C cervix will still be open will need 2 weeks to close, i very scared and paranoid that the womb will drop out leh! Trying to bedrest but felt sluggish and end up sit at sofa/PC table more instead. I think i will drink more chicken soup from now on.

Di your gynae tell you when roughly to expect next AF? I guess now we just have to wait? I am full of worries leh, worry whether lining will grow back, whether will have scarring, whether hormones will be wrecked again (as it is already very haywired), worry non stop.

Piglet, i think you are right track now, just let go and just be happy, be at peace, be relaxed. The mind do have power over the flesh.
 


Hi Liz,

My Chinese doctor has changed the prescription a few times until I got the medicine that is suitable for my current body condition.It did not work straight away for me.I almost want to give up. Perhaps Chinese medicine may also work for you, just that the effect will take place slowly & it's not prominent at the start.My Chinese doctor also mentioned about having enough 'Qi' to discharge the menses.One way is to make fruit juice like papaya mixed with apply/orange juice to drink. But I guess doing exercises will also help as I believe better blood circulation will improve the overall condition.

This would mean that those who have PCOS cannot take too much sugar? Where can I buy royal jelly? Usually how is it consumed?

Hi Dana and Sunny,

Yes,I need to stay relaxed consistently.I feel that by coming to this thread does help me to relax.I also try jogging more often and doing the butterfly yoga as recommended by BabyG.I need to remain consistent.

It's great to get encouragement from each other in this thread.Somehow,I feel the world is still beautiful and there is hope for a better tomorrow. There's warmth on earth.One word of 'Jia You' really makes an impact. I hope no other girls will experience what we are experiencing.

Another quote which I like "Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them humanity cannot survive."
 

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