(2013) TTC for #2 & More Mummies !
- Thread starter koms20
- Start date
missycandy
Active Member
ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh BFN ! hurhurhur! its Ok ! shall wait for AF to report !! and try again !!
bewildered
Member
Missy: today's cd?? ler?
vanilla04
Active Member
Yoohoo....
Good afternoon!! =)
missy: maybe too early? One day nv see red stilll got chance ma..
Bewildered: you CD what le? me AF jus reported ytd.. CD2 now.. Cant wait for CD3 so i can start my clomid.. hee...
Trying to be hopefully tat e clomid will work.. =D
Looking forward to O and then 2WW!! =D
Good afternoon!! =)
missy: maybe too early? One day nv see red stilll got chance ma..
Bewildered: you CD what le? me AF jus reported ytd.. CD2 now.. Cant wait for CD3 so i can start my clomid.. hee...
Trying to be hopefully tat e clomid will work.. =D
Looking forward to O and then 2WW!! =D
missycandy
Active Member
CD32... Had wet feeling for few days thought AF going to report ... Then stopped yesterday... But now back again .... Zzzzz!!!
bewildered
Member
Vanilla: todya's cd22 for me ler... Then v weird on the opk, coz the 2 lines remained for real long a time, almost close to a wk, but never positive... So i tawt jialat liao, coz pcos girls will usu have higher levels of lh, then i tawt tt my pcos's back to haunt me wor... So anyhow humtum..
Then aft tt the lines start to get more n more faint.. Dunno whether tis missed o ler or coz m stressed recently so body cannot o, then body will try to o again at a later date... So hor, v confusing, dunno wat to wait for..
Anw, think i just cont monitoring using the opk bah.. Nw tt m encountering this prob, i kinda think 2ww may b more bearable for me.. At least i know tt i've tried n waiting for results.. Nw hor, dunno if try right or wrong... Haha...
Missy: maybe still early wor, coz read tt it can take 6dpo to 12dpo to implant, then 2-3 days later for hcg to be tested in the blood, then another 2-3 days for hcg to be tested in the urine..
How long's ur cycle usu n do u know ur luteal phase? I read on those coz the luteal phase fe o day's a constant 12 to 16 days... So if ya know the o day, then hor, give it a max of 16 days n af's nt here yet, got chance!!
so long as af's nt here, dun rule urself out.. Good Luck & hope tt ur af won't bother ya for another 9 mths...
Then aft tt the lines start to get more n more faint.. Dunno whether tis missed o ler or coz m stressed recently so body cannot o, then body will try to o again at a later date... So hor, v confusing, dunno wat to wait for..
Anw, think i just cont monitoring using the opk bah.. Nw tt m encountering this prob, i kinda think 2ww may b more bearable for me.. At least i know tt i've tried n waiting for results.. Nw hor, dunno if try right or wrong... Haha...
Missy: maybe still early wor, coz read tt it can take 6dpo to 12dpo to implant, then 2-3 days later for hcg to be tested in the blood, then another 2-3 days for hcg to be tested in the urine..
How long's ur cycle usu n do u know ur luteal phase? I read on those coz the luteal phase fe o day's a constant 12 to 16 days... So if ya know the o day, then hor, give it a max of 16 days n af's nt here yet, got chance!!
vanilla04
Active Member
bewildered: what is tawt??
You have pcos? Heard pcos will be more difficult to concveie? Is that true?
They have difficulties getting the egg out? is tat true?
My luteal phase is 14 days. If start count from the date i tested positive of O will be 16 days. If from O day will be 14 days..
You have pcos? Heard pcos will be more difficult to concveie? Is that true?
They have difficulties getting the egg out? is tat true?
My luteal phase is 14 days. If start count from the date i tested positive of O will be 16 days. If from O day will be 14 days..
bewildered
Member
Heh heh, tawt is my short form for thought...
Yar, i've pcos, af's super irregular until i dun bother.. Tt's y aft getting married, i told hb tt no need to take precautions coz dun even know when'll get a kid, then think real lucky coz no stress n all (coz just got married mah), then got a surprise when we striked within 6 mths aft getting married...
Then aft delivery, af regularised, was so so so happy!! Tawt can then try for #2 aft a yr or so, coz mine's a c-sect delivery n i still got excess 10kg stuck with me.. So dun dare to try earlier, but dunno when'll #2 come coz dunno when's o..
If ur luteal phase's 14 days, then 14dpo if af din come, think will have high chance.. Mine's 16 days..
learnt abt my luteal phase when i manage to find o last mth... Heh heh... S guess lraning gs along the way... Heh heh..
Think pcos affects ttc coz it messes with ovulation...
http://www.circlebloom.com/does-pcos-affect-a-womans-ability-to-conceive/
If luteal phase's long and above 10days then considered normal n gd bah, according to websites.. Coz if luteal phase's less than 10days, tis known as luteal phase defect n the lining's cleared out too fast before the fertilised eggy can implant wor.. So think by knowing our luteal phase, it cleared one doubt too along the way.. Heh heh.. V interesting to read on all these...
Yar, i've pcos, af's super irregular until i dun bother.. Tt's y aft getting married, i told hb tt no need to take precautions coz dun even know when'll get a kid, then think real lucky coz no stress n all (coz just got married mah), then got a surprise when we striked within 6 mths aft getting married...
Then aft delivery, af regularised, was so so so happy!! Tawt can then try for #2 aft a yr or so, coz mine's a c-sect delivery n i still got excess 10kg stuck with me.. So dun dare to try earlier, but dunno when'll #2 come coz dunno when's o..
If ur luteal phase's 14 days, then 14dpo if af din come, think will have high chance.. Mine's 16 days..
Think pcos affects ttc coz it messes with ovulation...
http://www.circlebloom.com/does-pcos-affect-a-womans-ability-to-conceive/
If luteal phase's long and above 10days then considered normal n gd bah, according to websites.. Coz if luteal phase's less than 10days, tis known as luteal phase defect n the lining's cleared out too fast before the fertilised eggy can implant wor.. So think by knowing our luteal phase, it cleared one doubt too along the way.. Heh heh.. V interesting to read on all these...
vanilla04
Active Member
bewildered: So even before married you already know you got pcos le ar?
My AF also super irregular kind, so i'm really worried.. haiz... Will PCOS recover by itself? I read its like egg cant break out then became water like tat den very long later became cyst. Then all these cyst will block the egg from maturing and releasing lo.. =(
Yup.. Confirm LP if 14 days. Cuz after i gave birth, the day i tested positive for O is on 28 Mar, on 30th Mar, i felt the O cramp. Then AF reported 14 days later after O. I read that no matter how irregular your AF is, your LP will never change de.
So if from tested positive for O is 16 days. If count from O day is 14 days. haa..
Yup.. I agree if after the LP AF nv report hight chance. But i doubti can wait till 14 days!! lol... I think i'll start testing as early as DOP8.. muahahahahah... =P Tho even when i tested positive, i wont go to gyane until 6-8 weeks. haa... Cuz go so early oso no use, only after weeks can detect baby HB!! muahahhaa... But again, i dunno if i can wait tat long to visit a gynae... keke... =P
My AF also super irregular kind, so i'm really worried.. haiz... Will PCOS recover by itself? I read its like egg cant break out then became water like tat den very long later became cyst. Then all these cyst will block the egg from maturing and releasing lo.. =(
Yup.. Confirm LP if 14 days. Cuz after i gave birth, the day i tested positive for O is on 28 Mar, on 30th Mar, i felt the O cramp. Then AF reported 14 days later after O. I read that no matter how irregular your AF is, your LP will never change de.
So if from tested positive for O is 16 days. If count from O day is 14 days. haa..
Yup.. I agree if after the LP AF nv report hight chance. But i doubti can wait till 14 days!! lol... I think i'll start testing as early as DOP8.. muahahahahah... =P Tho even when i tested positive, i wont go to gyane until 6-8 weeks. haa... Cuz go so early oso no use, only after weeks can detect baby HB!! muahahhaa... But again, i dunno if i can wait tat long to visit a gynae... keke... =P
bewildered
Member
Yar, but i also forgot when i knew ler.. But i knew before wedding then even went to gynae before wedding to chk on condition, the gyne also cfm again tt pcos's still there... Sigh, made me cry in her office...
Then aft delivery n when i was contemplating ttc for #2 last yr, i went for a health chk up (coz got a big cyst when preggie with #1), so wanna go chk before i ttc to ensure tt everythg's ok, then the doc said tt cant see signs of pcos etc (coz think like what ya said, there'd be cyst) so i thought all clear ler...
Until when my o and ag went mossing fr jan till apr, i went to another gynae agn to chk wat's happening n asked the gynae 'how come af's n o's missing again when i am supposed to be cleared of pcos?' then the gynae looked amused n replied tt 'pcos never goes away, it is just how much symptoms u have n how much it is affecting u..' then i was like 'huh?!'
S now hor, i also dunno wh to believe, whether pcos had cleared liao or not, but tt's secondary ler bah, coz if mge to get preggy with #1,think #2 will come, just when #2'll come, i dunno only...
Yeap, the lp is a constant 12 to 16 days... Whoa, but ya mge to feel the o cramp wor, if can feel then better? How does it really feel like? Throbbing or pulling or?
Yar loh, think chk early oso no use.. Heh heh, only gd thg abt chking early's to ensure tt embryo's in the right pl, fetal pole n the other impt thg (forgot the name ler) can be seen to ensure tt tis a viable one etc bah... Heh heh, plus if test positive think cannot resist the urge to not chk..
Then aft delivery n when i was contemplating ttc for #2 last yr, i went for a health chk up (coz got a big cyst when preggie with #1), so wanna go chk before i ttc to ensure tt everythg's ok, then the doc said tt cant see signs of pcos etc (coz think like what ya said, there'd be cyst) so i thought all clear ler...
Until when my o and ag went mossing fr jan till apr, i went to another gynae agn to chk wat's happening n asked the gynae 'how come af's n o's missing again when i am supposed to be cleared of pcos?' then the gynae looked amused n replied tt 'pcos never goes away, it is just how much symptoms u have n how much it is affecting u..' then i was like 'huh?!'
S now hor, i also dunno wh to believe, whether pcos had cleared liao or not, but tt's secondary ler bah, coz if mge to get preggy with #1,think #2 will come, just when #2'll come, i dunno only...
Yeap, the lp is a constant 12 to 16 days... Whoa, but ya mge to feel the o cramp wor, if can feel then better? How does it really feel like? Throbbing or pulling or?
Yar loh, think chk early oso no use.. Heh heh, only gd thg abt chking early's to ensure tt embryo's in the right pl, fetal pole n the other impt thg (forgot the name ler) can be seen to ensure tt tis a viable one etc bah... Heh heh, plus if test positive think cannot resist the urge to not chk..
missycandy
Active Member
hmmm actually my cycle nt regular. hahaha... ranges from 28 to 63 days... but usually it will be monthly ... then after that missing 1 mth... then next mth come again ... hehehehe... and also, the last time we BD was on 12th ... so now is 19th ... so 7 days already... guess also right... anyway will just see how ... by next week should knw pregs or not ... not pregs then hope AF reports so I can monitor again...
missycandy
Active Member
if this cycle fails.. i think i will take a break for awhile... go on diet and lose weight before trying again ... been pushing back diet plans becos ttc-ing ... since not getting preggers after so long, might as well just diet ...
bewildered
Member
Missy: i oso wanna lose weight!! Sigh, feels so fat with 10kg still with me... A part of me said to exercise to lose weight first while another part said to get preggies then lose wgt via bfg... Can't make up my kind.. -_-
Btw, i think i know why i've so many days of 2 lines on the opk but never a positive ler..
http://www.prostate-massage-and-health.com/Semen.html
Semen contains many mood-altering hormones (which include: testosterone, luteinising hormone, oestrogen, follicle-stimulating hormone, prolactin and several different prostaglandins). Some these hormones can be detected in a women's blood within hours of exposure to semen.
So hor, maybe tis coz of bd tt lef the lh inside and came out when i tested on the opk bah..
Seems like the quantity of spermies' real impt too, coz the webby http://www.prostate-massage-and-health.com/Semen.html said that send in an army of 200m to 500m can have only 200 survivors.. -_- tough journey inside..
http://pregnancyloss.info/sperm-meets-egg-plan/ ts website's a bit scary as it said tt in non fertile mucus or dry inside, spermies' livespan's real short in hrs.. But in fertile mucus, can last for days.. Dunno if preseed'd count anot... coz noted tt recent mths v dry, prev got the ewcm, b ez to monitor, nw no more ler, can only rely on opk.. Din take bbt coz scared will stress myself further...
Anw, since most webbies said tt spermies can last ard 3 days inside, then we just bd every 3 days, just to keep a fresh supply inside, at least until eggy's released... But so far bd 3 times ler, dunno to continue for how long leh... Tiring for hb... Haha.. Then i oso dunno when's o and when's my 2ww gonna start...
Btw, i think i know why i've so many days of 2 lines on the opk but never a positive ler..
http://www.prostate-massage-and-health.com/Semen.html
Semen contains many mood-altering hormones (which include: testosterone, luteinising hormone, oestrogen, follicle-stimulating hormone, prolactin and several different prostaglandins). Some these hormones can be detected in a women's blood within hours of exposure to semen.
So hor, maybe tis coz of bd tt lef the lh inside and came out when i tested on the opk bah..
Seems like the quantity of spermies' real impt too, coz the webby http://www.prostate-massage-and-health.com/Semen.html said that send in an army of 200m to 500m can have only 200 survivors.. -_- tough journey inside..
http://pregnancyloss.info/sperm-meets-egg-plan/ ts website's a bit scary as it said tt in non fertile mucus or dry inside, spermies' livespan's real short in hrs.. But in fertile mucus, can last for days.. Dunno if preseed'd count anot...
coz noted tt recent mths v dry, prev got the ewcm, b ez to monitor, nw no more ler, can only rely on opk.. Din take bbt coz scared will stress myself further... Anw, since most webbies said tt spermies can last ard 3 days inside, then we just bd every 3 days, just to keep a fresh supply inside, at least until eggy's released... But so far bd 3 times ler, dunno to continue for how long leh... Tiring for hb... Haha.. Then i oso dunno when's o and when's my 2ww gonna start...
vanilla04
Active Member
bewildered: huh... So now also dunno pcos still there anot ar? Y u dun wan seek second opinion?
O cramp ar... Cramp lo.. haa... I thk mine is left side de ovary release egg tats y is left side pain.. The pain is like a little sharp pain kind lo.. you will feel the uncomfortable de lo..
missy: Wah... really irregular.. mine worst.. before i seek help, mine is like one year can come twice type lo... *faint*
Me too.. I hope to lose some weight too.. But at the same time i wanna get preggy too.. haiz... but cant do all at one time.. =(
O cramp ar... Cramp lo.. haa... I thk mine is left side de ovary release egg tats y is left side pain.. The pain is like a little sharp pain kind lo.. you will feel the uncomfortable de lo..
missy: Wah... really irregular.. mine worst.. before i seek help, mine is like one year can come twice type lo... *faint*
Me too.. I hope to lose some weight too.. But at the same time i wanna get preggy too.. haiz... but cant do all at one time.. =(
bewildered,missy and vanilla: i also want to lose weight and change job..bcoz of ttc,i don't dare to do both it for the last 2 years..sianz..
how do you all know whether you all got pcos? my menses comes every mth but not regular,ranges from 26-32 days,is that consider? i went gynae before did v scan and bld test but dr didn't mention anything abt pcos..
how do you all know whether you all got pcos? my menses comes every mth but not regular,ranges from 26-32 days,is that consider? i went gynae before did v scan and bld test but dr didn't mention anything abt pcos..
Sian to the max.. Tested this am on it is BFN. cd33 ler. Not sure whether too early. My irregular menses supposed to be due tmr according to calculator. As long as af x come still holding on to that little hope..
Bewildered, after I read your many days of positive opk wondered whether mine is false positive. Argh, hope I din miss it
Bewildered, after I read your many days of positive opk wondered whether mine is false positive. Argh, hope I din miss it
bewildered
Member
Bbfaith: i oso tawt of changing job last yr so din ttc but then oso cant keep d determination to lose weight.. Sigh..
Now tt m gg to start ttc (coz cant seem to find a job as d coys tt i went to r all more interested in who's looking aft my #1,whether m planningfor #2 & all).. Tis alr hard to find job wif the general skillsets tt i have n coys r so discriminative.. Sigh.. Shld've focused n go into a niche field during study time.. -_-
Oh, pcos's if the cycle is irregular.. If the cycle's long but still comes within tt timing, tis still okie bah..
Vanilla: erm, coz nw tt af's irregular agn, i'll just take it tt the pcos's still there.. Then oso coz havnt ttc naturally for a yr so dun think will c doc agn so soon bah..
Pillow: as long as af's nt here yet, still got chance..
Jiayou!!
Oh, mine's never positive for this cycle, just many days of 2 lines on d opk but din grow darker to positive.. So i oso dunno hw to read ler..
Now tt m gg to start ttc (coz cant seem to find a job as d coys tt i went to r all more interested in who's looking aft my #1,whether m planningfor #2 & all).. Tis alr hard to find job wif the general skillsets tt i have n coys r so discriminative.. Sigh.. Shld've focused n go into a niche field during study time.. -_-
Oh, pcos's if the cycle is irregular.. If the cycle's long but still comes within tt timing, tis still okie bah..
Vanilla: erm, coz nw tt af's irregular agn, i'll just take it tt the pcos's still there.. Then oso coz havnt ttc naturally for a yr so dun think will c doc agn so soon bah..
Pillow: as long as af's nt here yet, still got chance..
Oh, mine's never positive for this cycle, just many days of 2 lines on d opk but din grow darker to positive.. So i oso dunno hw to read ler..
missycandy
Active Member
pillow, yr AF also same as me ah? started on 18th april ? hmmm....
missycandy
Active Member
for those keen to lose weight, anyone keen to try this product ?
http://www.singaporemotherhood.com/forumboard/messages/581296/7051236.html?1337506457
looks quite interesting ...
http://www.trim-up.com/sg.html
im thinking of buying in bulk so can get better price ... anyone keen to try PM me k ?
time to lose weight !!!
http://www.singaporemotherhood.com/forumboard/messages/581296/7051236.html?1337506457
looks quite interesting ...
http://www.trim-up.com/sg.html
im thinking of buying in bulk so can get better price ... anyone keen to try PM me k ?
time to lose weight !!!
missycandy
Active Member
by the way, i do not think its certified by HSA ...
Missycandy, u watched the program called dietary errors? They mentioned something abt such weightloss stuff... if this is not certified by hsa u must be more careful... Remember the royston lee & wife fiasco which resulted in one actress (cannot rem her name) losing function of liver. Choi la but must b on the careful side...
missycandy
Active Member
ahhh the andrea de cruz one ?
yeh my dr told me ... taking all the diet pills is just feeding it to yr liver ...
yeh my dr told me ... taking all the diet pills is just feeding it to yr liver ...
Missycandy, yah u got the name right... Actually the liver is an important organ since it removes toxins from body. Which is wht alcohol is actually bad. I saw the program and they have this thing called coffee enigma (咖啡灌肠） that helps improve intestinal/liver health.
As for effective dieting, he recommends healthy 3 meals with lots of veg and fruits. No skipping meals too. My friend tried the calories diet and it worked well for him. Eating low calories mean taking more 清单food. Like fish soups, Yong tau foO soup (non fried ingredients), cut a bit of carbs. Avoiding deep fried stuff, cha quay teow, 油鸡饭... U can still have them occasionally, perhaps about once every 2 weeks. by and by, weight should drop w some light exercise (my friend recommends climbing up (not down hor) stairs.
As for effective dieting, he recommends healthy 3 meals with lots of veg and fruits. No skipping meals too. My friend tried the calories diet and it worked well for him. Eating low calories mean taking more 清单food. Like fish soups, Yong tau foO soup (non fried ingredients), cut a bit of carbs. Avoiding deep fried stuff, cha quay teow, 油鸡饭... U can still have them occasionally, perhaps about once every 2 weeks. by and by, weight should drop w some light exercise (my friend recommends climbing up (not down hor) stairs.
hi gals,
u gals can watch the videos at the xinmsn catchuptv... maybe can pick up some non-medical tips to loose weight.
http://video.xin.msn.com/search/dietary%20errors
u gals can watch the videos at the xinmsn catchuptv... maybe can pick up some non-medical tips to loose weight.
http://video.xin.msn.com/search/dietary%20errors
missycandy
Active Member
eh tested but bfn ... think tmr il go buy the fortel since its on offer ! hehehe!
thanks snowhopes for the info !
thanks snowhopes for the info !
bewildered
Member
Missy: i've got this http://www.gmarket.com.sg/gmkt.inc/Mobile/Goods/Goods.aspx?goodscode=405076763
Then read alot online, even amazon's selling alot of cla producs tho nt of the same brand..
Anyone knows if aft taking any med,how long will it take to flush it out of the system?
Pillow: dun worry too much.. Hope tt ya'll get ur Positive soon!!
think m nt tt stress ler, coz cant even find o, so shall just try to bd every 3-4 days to maintain a fresh supply inside until af comes bah.. Dunno when'll af come tho coz i wont know when i actually started 2ww coz dunno when o.. Tt's the only pob bah.. : p
Then read alot online, even amazon's selling alot of cla producs tho nt of the same brand..
Anyone knows if aft taking any med,how long will it take to flush it out of the system?
Pillow: dun worry too much.. Hope tt ya'll get ur Positive soon!!
missycandy
Active Member
nopes didnt watch ... anyway ive asked HSA if its ok to consume or not... will wait for their reply ... =P
bewildered
Member
Ask ya sthg, anyone bot stuffs from taobao etc? M new at this, so abit blur..
The prices stated's in wh currency, include delivery, hw to order etc? M eyeing the double boiler leh, looks like v ez to make soup n all... Interesting!!
http://list.tmall.com/search_product.htm?q=%CC%EC%BC%CA&user_action=initiative&at_topsearch=1&sort=st&type=p&prt=1337534179574&prc=1&userBucket=6&userBucketCell=6
http://search8.taobao.com/search?q=%CC%EC%BC%CA&commend=all&ssid=s5-e&pid=mm_14507416_2297358_8935934
The prices stated's in wh currency, include delivery, hw to order etc? M eyeing the double boiler leh, looks like v ez to make soup n all... Interesting!!
http://list.tmall.com/search_product.htm?q=%CC%EC%BC%CA&user_action=initiative&at_topsearch=1&sort=st&type=p&prt=1337534179574&prc=1&userBucket=6&userBucketCell=6
http://search8.taobao.com/search?q=%CC%EC%BC%CA&commend=all&ssid=s5-e&pid=mm_14507416_2297358_8935934
joyceberries
Active Member
morning ladies!
my Af just ended yesterday.. tink i skipping this mth cycle..coz i calculate myself if really tat lucky i strike, EDD will be feb 2013 which is CNY period..
cftongtan : keep us updated ya... hope it is a gd news!
Anne_raj : tink test using the first urine in the morning is the most accurate one if i'm not wrong
BBlove: wat CD are you in now?
my Af just ended yesterday.. tink i skipping this mth cycle..coz i calculate myself if really tat lucky i strike, EDD will be feb 2013 which is CNY period..
cftongtan : keep us updated ya... hope it is a gd news!
Anne_raj : tink test using the first urine in the morning is the most accurate one if i'm not wrong
BBlove: wat CD are you in now?
Bewildered, me too same as you for this cycle. I dunno when is my 2ww starts. Cos I tested opk from cd 10-cd20. All faint lines then use clearblue and saw smiley face on cd 17 and 20. 3 days apart!!! How can it be? Thinking the clearblue spoilt. Seen gynae, said either ovulated or not ovulating... Very very angry, no ans to it...
So I dun care lah , intend to test on this sat and next Monday.
So I dun care lah , intend to test on this sat and next Monday.
missycandy
Active Member
Bewildered, does that cla work ?
missycandy
Active Member
Testing first morning urine for pregnancy is best because highest levelif hcg is present ... Hcg is the hormone we produce when pregs ....
LH is when ovulating ... N testing opks is from 10am-8pm ... Not first morning urine ...
LH is when ovulating ... N testing opks is from 10am-8pm ... Not first morning urine ...
Good morning everyone!
berries: we are cycle buddy. my af just ended today. but this month is 24 days cycle. usuallynine is 28days.. btw, any reasons why you wanna skip this month? care to share your thoughts? I am also thinking if I should skip anot too.. but hubby wants a baby badly.
berries: we are cycle buddy. my af just ended today. but this month is 24 days cycle. usuallynine is 28days.. btw, any reasons why you wanna skip this month? care to share your thoughts? I am also thinking if I should skip anot too.. but hubby wants a baby badly.
joyceberries
Active Member
shirley, i scared if really lucky i strike, EDD will be on CNY period.. tats y..
are you ttc for #2?
are you ttc for #2?
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