(2006/06) June 2006 MTB

zita - my ss only came on the 5th day or so...
on day 4 & 5 - i did give him FM. but only 1oz after he latch on for 30+mins becos he kept on crying...

but continue to latch on, will be able to suck ur colostrum. heard tat it is v v good for bb.
 


Mum2B,

Thomson ParentCraft No is 6251 4090. They charge $42. You can look for Mrs Wong (Grace will help if Mrs Wong is busy). You might want to bring a milk bottle too, cos they will return you your milk after the pumping/massaging session.
 
Zita27,

Don be stress. In fact you shl be glad tat your baby is sucking your colostrum cos it is the best and the most nutrition fluid,in fact it is the first vaccine for baby too.Milk will come gradually if you continue to latch her to help to stimulate the milk flow.My ss came on the 3rd day and i latch my baby from the very first day,she took lots of my colostrum too.In fact,baby can go without milk in the first few days. Just the colostrum is more than enough.

Stay cheerful and positive, your ss will come soon.
 
MTDT,
we do have a table for june mummies here...lyn is maintaining it
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panda,

The rompers are cute! I have placed an order for the cutie pie design liao. See good or not. If good, perhaps i order other designs too. Too nice to resist
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MTDT,
this is mine.

Mom's nick : Angeline
Bb's nick : Celest
Bb's sex : Female
Bb's DOB : 26th May 2006
Lovenest : Farrer Park
Bb's PD : Dr Ong EK @TMC SBCC
Jab @ PD
Milk - TBF
Pump use: Medela Mini Electric
 
RE : BB Soap/Shower Gel

Any mummies using sebamed or cetaphil?
coz my bb got sensitive skin leh..i tink lah..the back of the neck got many red 'dots/patches'..dun seems to be like heat rash etc...now me using pigeon brand of bb wash..tinking of changing..anybody koes where got sell the above??any pics to show?coz sebamed got many range..

celeste,

wat brand u using 4 the bb wash? these 2 days my bb vv cranky in the afternoon.mus carry her 1..the moment put her down to bbcot,within 5mins she will cry v loudly...sometimes even when carrying her,she will oso cry non-stop..n moves n squim like v uncomfortable like tt..so tiring...keep burping her n everytime got burp 1..tink alot of wind inside..fed her the gripe water liao..sian,my pil not happy coz the bb like tt..say the reason is bcoz we had "starved" her n thus got wind inside..haiz..my mil is the type who keeps on feeding the bb milk no matter whens her last feeding..always touch her mouth n if opens means she hungry..can u imagine??if i not ard,wonder how much she will feed her liao..n my gal is the type who always open her mouth loh!!
 
angeline,
my mil, she opp .. she always say dun feed too much fm to my bb ... if his last feed is 2 hrs back (usually 3hrs will cry for milk and that time my bb is still less than a month).. and when i say bb hungry liao wanna drink milk .. she said huh thought just drank?? cannot drink too much .. duhzz but i still tell my CL that bb crying mayb for milk. siao la if she got chance take care bb dunno will starve him a not heehee ..
 
MTDT,
thanx for updating

Mom's nick : poohy
Bb's nick : joelle
Bb's sex : Female
Bb's DOB : 22 May 2006
Lovenest : Jurong West
Bb's PD : Dr Terence Tan
Jab @ GP
Milk - BF + FM (Enfalac A+)
Pump use: Medela Mini Electric
 
re: jab

joelle took her 6-in-1 jab yesterday with her gorgor who took MMR. so far so good not much high fever...just slight...
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I took it at my family doc GP and cost $132.

angeline,
both my bb uses sebamed series.. its available from robinson or kiddy palace or guardian. We uses the bubble bath
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hmm for the red patches, how about applying the california bb cream? sounds like heat rash to me... my girl got it too ...
 
Angeline,

Does ur mil see ur bb often? I realise that if the old pple dun see bb often, they very scared bb hungry heee.. and will tend to feed the bb whenever they have the chance to do so :p My mum is like tat lor.. 2 hrs up my bb make noise and she will say my bb hungry heee.. but she does agree lah if i feed bb water instead :p
 
<table border=1><tr><td>Mom's nick </TD><TD>Bb's nick </TD><TD>Bb's sex </TD><TD>Bb's DOB </TD><TD>Lovenest </TD><TD>Bb's PD </TD><TD>Jab @ ? </TD><TD>Milk - TBF or FM(Brand) </TD><TD>Pump use </TD></TR><TR><TD>Angeline </TD><TD>Celest </TD><TD>Female</TD><TD>26-May-06</TD><TD>Farrer Park</TD><TD>Dr Ong EK @ TMC SBCC</TD><TD>Jab @ PD</TD><TD>TBF</TD><TD>Medela Mini Ele </TD></TR><TR><TD>dor</TD><TD>Mandy</TD><TD>Female</TD><TD>04-Jun-06</TD><TD>Upper Thomson</TD><TD>Dr Terence Tan @ Mt A</TD><TD>Jab @ PD</TD><TD>BF + FM (Friso)</TD><TD>Medela Mini Ele </TD></TR><TR><TD>Hazel </TD><TD>Jared </TD><TD>Male</TD><TD>15-May-06</TD><TD>Jurong West</TD><TD>NA</TD><TD>Jab @ Poly</TD><TD>FM ( Dumex Mamil Gold)</TD><TD>Medela Mini Ele </TD></TR><TR><TD>Hidora</TD><TD>Isaiah</TD><TD>Male</TD><TD>20-Jun-06</TD><TD>NA</TD><TD>Dr Lim Kwang Hsian @ ESH</TD><TD>Jab @ PD</TD><TD>BF + FM</TD><TD>Avent Manual </TD></TR><TR><TD>i_panda77</TD><TD>Josh</TD><TD>Male</TD><TD>04-Jun-06</TD><TD>Bukit Timah</TD><TD>Dr Ang AT @ TMC</TD><TD>Jab @ PD</TD><TD>90% BF + 10% FM </TD><TD>Avent ISIS Uno </TD></TR><TR><TD>Josephine</TD><TD>James</TD><TD>Male</TD><TD>20-Jun-06</TD><TD>Old Airport Road</TD><TD>Dr Terence Tan @ Mt A</TD><TD>Jab @ PD</TD><TD>TBF</TD><TD>Avent ISIS Duo </TD></TR><TR><TD>kk</TD><TD>Yu Jun</TD><TD>Female</TD><TD>21-Apr-06</TD><TD>Sengkang</TD><TD>Dr Ong EK @ TMC SBCC</TD><TD>Jab @ PD</TD><TD>FM (Wyeth Gold S26)</TD><TD>Medela Mini Ele </TD></TR><TR><TD>MOAP</TD><TD>Ginelle</TD><TD>Female</TD><TD>23-May-06</TD><TD>Hougang</TD><TD>NA</TD><TD>Jab @ PD</TD><TD>TBF</TD><TD>Avent Manual </TD></TR><TR><TD>mspiggy </TD><TD>Wesley </TD><TD>Male</TD><TD>13-Jun-06</TD><TD>AMK</TD><TD>Dr Koh @ SBCC</TD><TD>Jab @ PD</TD><TD>BF + FM (Frisco)</TD><TD>Ameda </TD></TR><TR><TD>MTDT</TD><TD>Zavier</TD><TD>Male</TD><TD>15-Jun-06</TD><TD>Punggol</TD><TD>Dr Keoy SS @ TMC</TD><TD>Jab @ Poly</TD><TD>TBF (standby-Enfalac A+)</TD><TD>Avent Manual </TD></TR><TR><TD>Mum2b</TD><TD>Felicia</TD><TD>Female</TD><TD>16-Jun-06</TD><TD>Clementi</TD><TD>Dr Simon Ng @ Mt A</TD><TD>Jab @ PD</TD><TD>BF + FM</TD><TD>Medela Mini Ele </TD></TR><TR><TD>okipoki </TD><TD>Chloe </TD><TD>Female</TD><TD>20-Jun-06</TD><TD>Dover</TD><TD>Dr Lee AT @ Mt A</TD><TD>Jab @ PD</TD><TD>BF + FM</TD><TD>Medela Mini Ele </TD></TR><TR><TD>poohy </TD><TD>joelle </TD><TD>Female</TD><TD>22-May-06</TD><TD>Jurong West</TD><TD>Dr Terence Tan @ Mt A</TD><TD>Jab @ GP</TD><TD>BF + FM (Enfalac A+)</TD><TD>Medela Mini Ele </TD></TR><TR><TD>soh1dful</TD><TD>Darrell</TD><TD>Male</TD><TD>30-May-06</TD><TD>Yishun</TD><TD>Dr William Yip @ GlenE</TD><TD>Jab @ PD</TD><TD>BF + FM</TD><TD>Avent Manual </TD></TR><TR><TD>syen27 </TD><TD>Brian </TD><TD>Male</TD><TD>23-May-06</TD><TD>Pasir Ris</TD><TD>NA</TD><TD>Jab @ PD</TD><TD>TBF</TD><TD>Avent Manual </TD></TR><TR><TD></td></tr></table>
 
morning...

okasan - yup, lyn did mention tat she has the old list. but this new list consist more on info on bb. furthermore, the old list, many dun come in to chat liao. so lyn says to continue this list.
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we shall see how lah.
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kk - tell us if the romper is good quality.
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Thks MTDT &amp; Jojo, btw possible to pump till milk come? then latch on? cause my gal after taking EBM no mood to suck liao...

Btw do baby cry more at nite? she seem to sleep well in day but nite time keep crying to carry leh...

Oop when should we take the 5 in 1 or 6 in 1 jab har?

lyn..will sleep on tummy b more dangerous? i feel my gal sleep better on tummy but hosp now dont encourage that way of sleep scare wait bb suffocated.
 
zita,
For the first few times when I let my baby sleep on tummy, I will watch him. He already can lift and turn his head, so I am not worried
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He can crawl and flip over too. I am only worried whether he will fall off my bed... I do check on him every hour when I put him on my bed. He sleeps better and longer while on his tummy...
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zita - am not so sure with just pumping for simulation. till now i am still latching my bb 95% of the time. but think u r rite, once they get used to bottles, they will lazy to suck from breast.

nite fussy - think quite common. try to slowly adjust her "awake" time to morning. easier for u. my bb started wtih 2-4am being awake. slowly now i change to 7pm-9pm. at least daddy is home to play with him.

jab - think 1st mth for 5-1, and 2nd mth for 6-1.
tat's wat my PD says. :p

tummy - my PD encourage me to let bb sleep on tummy in the DAY. He will sleep better and longer. but like wat lyn says, must check on him now and then. at nite, i will usu let him sleep on his side.
 
Morning ladies !!

Lyn / MTDT,
Was feeling real sick for the past few days due to the engorgement.. having fever on off. I cant really pump out due to having short nipple
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haiz !! well, now that the fever is gone but still feeling some pain. have been trying to pump out as much as possible &amp; my nipple is so sore.
 
josephine,
ehh u delivered ur boy at Mt A ar ?? Probably we are staying nearby each other... which room number are u at ? Did u visit ur PD last monday ?

MTDT,
Btw, my PD is Dr Lee CY
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and am feeling my ger FM (Dumex Mamil Gold)
 
oki - oh, got see doc abt it? how u noe it's becos short nipple?

maybe becos u can let down?

sore nipple - use nipple cream.
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Morning mummies!
Zita you taking care of bb yourself or have a confinement lady. My CL wakes me up when bb james is hungry and i bf him for 30min (15min each side) then he's alright, will go to sleep.

If they are fussy/crying and it's not hunger nor shit, Mrs Wong told me it could be wind. See his outer lips got white white lining, means got wind in tummy. Lay him on his tummy on your thigh and pet his back so that wind will come out...

KK: Is it ok to go for massage and body wrap 20days after c-sec?

Okipoki:
Massage with hot towel on breast anti clockwise 10 times, 10 times clockwise. then put Breast Pump pump out milk. then hot towel again... Then use finger poke that engorgement spot and massage it for a full min. Then pump again. should clear the blockage : )
 
Okipoki: i delivered at TMC. I visited PD Terence tan on Thur. Next one on Mon 7 Aug. will go for 6-1 jab then.

Sore nipple turn into bleeding nipple: better go see mrs wong

i panda - is Grace = Magaret the ang moh? mrs wong wasn't free so she massage me that day, she's very rough, but she really help ease the engorgement.
 
josephine,

I dun think so rite??? Good to check with ur gynae on ur 6th week postnatal checkup
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From what i know, shouldn't start on massage so early for us c-sec cases.

For me, 20 days the wound not healed yet cos i can still feel the discomfort whenever i moved around.
 
Dr Ang my gyane since last thur (10day after c-sec) said ok to do anything from then on. He already remove stiches at the end, and said i can bathe, can walk etc. i asked massage lady they also say 2wks can have massage already, but to be on safe side, i only accept massage on 20th day. dunno le... any other opnions from other mummies?
 
my gynae and massage lady both suggested 3 weeks after birth for csec. so i will be starting this thrus. cant wait for it... :p

wind - oh, see outer lip got white white thingy or not? tat's something new.
 
MTDT,
No didnt see any doc.. when i am in the hospital the nurse already commented. then my massage lady &amp; my own mum also said that so confirmed lor
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Erhm what do u mean by let down.. pardon for my ignorance.. haha !! I used medela pulan to apply.. hopefully will be better.

Josephine,
I did try ur method but duno i do it correctly or not but the pain is still there just that no fever (keep my finger x) &amp; i try to pump as much as possible.
Ehh i am surprised that u gave birth in TMC but seeing Dr Terence Tan @ Mt A. Dr Tan shared the same clinic as my PD. Dor saw me on my 1st visit &amp; i thought u might be there as well
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MTDT,
Huh... I thought ur bb is induced ? U gone thru' c-section ?? My massage lady said c-section can starts as early as 1 week which can yield better result. My massage is going to end this friday cos i took at 14 days massage. So far the result hv been real good &amp; my tummy has flatten alot
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let down - means u r so relax tat milk will flow like floodgate open. i think tat's the meaning.
some pple dun get let down, so they get huge difficulty in pumping and emptying breast.

so wat ml u get each time u pump? after pump, breast not hard anymore?

i was induced, but after a long while, no progress (stayed at 2cm dilate), so went for csec.
 
MTDT,
Wow.. mine definitely no let down.. think i got some ducts being blocked. I will be seeing my gynae this thursday &amp; according to my sis the nurse know how to unblocked, am prepared for the pain. haiz !!! seem like our breasts kena abused.

is all depend sometime can be as much as 80ml before engorgment.. now is like 40ml to 60ml &amp; worst is 20ml on both side. my breast wont feel hard but wobby &amp; if i press the part where the pain is, it will still be painful lor. now i also dun hv enuff milk to feed her.

no wonder, all along i thot u are being induced cos i didnt remember audrey told me u changed to c-section leh.
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hahaha.. audrey told u huh? she noes meh? :p

good to get the ducts unblocked. i will be seeing my LC on monday. also prepared to hv a painful massage as i can feel lumps liao! :p worst is now, i am so lazy to pump. think will get the electric dual pump on monday too. :p
 
hazel,

wah..my mil really opp from u...haha..cannot imagine next time if she take care how..

poohy,

the bubblebath is it a non-rinse type?coz,i was at robinson yesterday n saw the sebamed series but couldnt find any bb bathwash..only saw the nearest items is your bubblebath and the bath soap..so dun koe wat to buy..wats california cream?wats is it use for?hmm,if got chance i take pic n post here n let u all see..

kk,

dun tink so leh...my fil will esp come aft work to see the bb 1...my mil not tt often lah but still sat sun she will come whole day..

lyn

how old your bb? can put them sleep on their stomach liao?my gal's head right side abit flat coz she likes to zzz on tt side..everytime we put her on her left side,she will turn her head over on her own..buy those pillow with a hole oso no use...
 
ms piggy,
your PD is Dr Koh PK @ SBCC (AMK), is he good?

I'm with Dr Ong EK @ SBCC (TMC), find it out of d way and also his cons ex at $60ps. The last time I went to see him, he was on leave, ano/t lady PD stood in for him and the cons is only $40. How much is your PD cons per session?

kite:
yes, right after my discharge, she gave me a supplement (for childbirth recovery, mental alertness, etc) and iron. Yes, next visit is one-year later. I stopped the silicon after 3 days as it kept falling off, not using binder as it gives me rashes.
sad.gif
My boi boi gained 1.4kg when weighed during 1mth visit. On both BM+FM (Enfalac A+). I'm also planning to get a Graco Stroller fr Aprisin next week, how much is yours, which model?

Baby Car Seat:
Who has gotten car sear? Can recommend? If not, pls do share which brand you are owning now? Thks a lot! Need to quick buy these items before I return to work ... else no time ...
 
Jo/KK,

I had my message done starting after 2weeks, everything ok leh.Just that my message lady did not do hard on my tummy due to the c-sec.The binding is also ok.I don feel any pain.Maybe this will help to clear ur doubts ba.
 
MTDT,
Duno she heard from who &amp; she told me in MSN maybe from Gigi.

I wanted to get the ducts unblocked, hopefully the nurse can relief my agony. btw, u make appt with the LC or ?? is it bb must born is TMC ? Me too also abit lazy to pump but no choice lah cos the lump is still there. so far i didnt get to use my avent manual &amp; my friend actually lent me her mini electric, just change the valve &amp; membrane will do.
 
Please add mine:

Mom's nick : Paula
Bb's name: Kelly
Bb's sex : Female
Bb's DOB : 05 June 06
Lovenest : CCK Cres
Bb's PD : Dr. Sam @ KKH TPS
Jab @ GP
Milk - BF + FM (Similac)
Pump use: Medela Mini Electric
 
Mum2B,

My LC nurse said 15mins on each side is good enough. For me, I spend about 20mins in total for both breasts. While pumping, I will massage my breast, and check to see if there's any lumpy area. Then I will rub and push the lumpy area towards the nipple. Or when I see that my MS is slow, I will use both thrumbs to rub the whole breast area towards the nipples. Seems to work quite well as my breast can empty very fast after the rubbing. But I feel that I'm getting bruise breasts from the rubbing.. lol
 
Jojo do you have to keep the binder on the whole day for best results, isn't it hot and sticky?

Oki: i went to Terence under friend's recommendation, as i was not v impressed with Dr Koey @TMC.
 
<table border=1><tr><td>Mom's nick </TD><TD>Bb's nick </TD><TD>Bb's sex </TD><TD>Bb's DOB </TD><TD>Lovenest </TD><TD>Bb's PD </TD><TD>Jab @ ? </TD><TD>Milk - TBF or FM(Brand) </TD><TD>Pump use </TD></TR><TR><TD>Angeline </TD><TD>Celest </TD><TD>Female</TD><TD>26-May-06</TD><TD>Farrer Park</TD><TD>Dr Ong EK @ TMC SBCC</TD><TD>Jab @ PD</TD><TD>TBF</TD><TD>Medela Mini Ele </TD></TR><TR><TD>dor</TD><TD>Mandy</TD><TD>Female</TD><TD>04-Jun-06</TD><TD>Upper Thomson</TD><TD>Dr Terence Tan @ Mt A</TD><TD>Jab @ PD</TD><TD>BF + FM (Friso)</TD><TD>Medela Mini Ele </TD></TR><TR><TD>Hazel </TD><TD>Jared </TD><TD>Male</TD><TD>15-May-06</TD><TD>Jurong West</TD><TD>NA</TD><TD>Jab @ Poly</TD><TD>FM ( Dumex Mamil Gold)</TD><TD>Medela Mini Ele </TD></TR><TR><TD>Hidora</TD><TD>Isaiah</TD><TD>Male</TD><TD>20-Jun-06</TD><TD>NA</TD><TD>Dr Lim Kwang Hsian @ ESH</TD><TD>Jab @ PD</TD><TD>BF + FM</TD><TD>Avent Manual </TD></TR><TR><TD>i_panda77</TD><TD>Josh</TD><TD>Male</TD><TD>04-Jun-06</TD><TD>Bukit Timah</TD><TD>Dr Ang AT @ TMC</TD><TD>Jab @ PD</TD><TD>90% BF + 10% FM </TD><TD>Avent ISIS Uno </TD></TR><TR><TD>Josephine</TD><TD>James</TD><TD>Male</TD><TD>20-Jun-06</TD><TD>Old Airport Road</TD><TD>Dr Terence Tan @ Mt A</TD><TD>Jab @ PD</TD><TD>TBF</TD><TD>Avent ISIS Duo </TD></TR><TR><TD>kk</TD><TD>Yu Jun</TD><TD>Female</TD><TD>21-Apr-06</TD><TD>Sengkang</TD><TD>Dr Ong EK @ TMC SBCC</TD><TD>Jab @ PD</TD><TD>FM (Wyeth Gold S26)</TD><TD>Medela Mini Ele </TD></TR><TR><TD>MOAP</TD><TD>Ginelle</TD><TD>Female</TD><TD>23-May-06</TD><TD>Hougang</TD><TD>NA</TD><TD>Jab @ PD</TD><TD>TBF</TD><TD>Avent Manual </TD></TR><TR><TD>mspiggy </TD><TD>Wesley </TD><TD>Male</TD><TD>13-Jun-06</TD><TD>AMK</TD><TD>Dr Koh @ SBCC</TD><TD>Jab @ PD</TD><TD>BF + FM (Frisco)</TD><TD>Ameda </TD></TR><TR><TD>MTDT</TD><TD>Zavier</TD><TD>Male</TD><TD>15-Jun-06</TD><TD>Punggol</TD><TD>Dr Keoy SS @ TMC</TD><TD>Jab @ Poly</TD><TD>TBF (standby-Enfalac A+)</TD><TD>Avent Manual </TD></TR><TR><TD>Mum2b</TD><TD>Felicia</TD><TD>Female</TD><TD>16-Jun-06</TD><TD>Clementi</TD><TD>Dr Simon Ng @ Mt A</TD><TD>Jab @ PD</TD><TD>BF + FM</TD><TD>Medela Mini Ele </TD></TR><TR><TD>okipoki </TD><TD>Chloe </TD><TD>Female</TD><TD>20-Jun-06</TD><TD>Dover</TD><TD>Dr Lee CY @ Mt A</TD><TD>Jab @ PD</TD><TD>BF + FM</TD><TD>Medela Mini Ele </TD></TR><TR><TD>Paula </TD><TD>Kelly </TD><TD>Female</TD><TD>05-Jun-06</TD><TD>CCK Cres</TD><TD>Dr Sam @ KKH TPS</TD><TD>Jab @ GP</TD><TD>BF + FM (Similac)</TD><TD>Medela Mini Ele </TD></TR><TR><TD>poohy </TD><TD>joelle </TD><TD>Female</TD><TD>22-May-06</TD><TD>Jurong West</TD><TD>Dr Terence Tan @ Mt A</TD><TD>Jab @ GP</TD><TD>BF + FM (Enfalac A+)</TD><TD>Medela Mini Ele </TD></TR><TR><TD>soh1dful</TD><TD>Darrell</TD><TD>Male</TD><TD>30-May-06</TD><TD>Yishun</TD><TD>Dr William Yip @ GlenE</TD><TD>Jab @ PD</TD><TD>BF + FM</TD><TD>Avent Manual </TD></TR><TR><TD>syen27 </TD><TD>Brian </TD><TD>Male</TD><TD>23-May-06</TD><TD>Pasir Ris</TD><TD>NA</TD><TD>Jab @ PD</TD><TD>TBF</TD><TD>Avent Manual </TD></TR><TR><TD></td></tr></table>
 
Thanks...manage to have 30ml today after a hot shower

lyn...Oh really then i let my gal sleep on tummy too : )

MTMD- If got unblock duct need a LC to unblock? me seem to have only 2 hole leh! how to u adjust the time of yr bb wake up time?

Josephine, me takecare on own at nite..her wake up time seem to be from 12am till 5am...keep crying n need me to carry...in day sleep whole day...
 
oki - not sure if it's only for TMC bb. actually u can just try to call for appt. dun think they will noe who is born in TMC! haha :p

jo - i also not v impressed with Dr Keoy. :p
most prob will change to one nearer to my home.
but since i intend to take my jabs at polyclinic, maybe dun even need a PD rite?

experienced moms - wat are PD for? beside giving jabs. :p
 
josephine,
icic... no wonder, i also heard of terence tan is quite a good GD. i read from a book said that engorgement will go away within 48hrs then the milk will leak.. not sure how true.
 
MTDT,
erhhm quite true also.. see how lah, i check with my gynae's nurse 1st if she can "cure" me
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i thought PD is baby's doctor.. expertised in seeing baby.
 


zita - wow, 12am till 5am? :p
wat i did was, i cluster feed bb at nite. once wake up, latch on, sleep, 30mins later wake again latch on, sleep until morning. then during the day, at times, i will not "force" bb to sleep if he seems "awake". slowly he will adjust the timing.

furthermore, his dad will always carry him after he knock off from work. so i let them play awhile. so now, he will sleep at nite, only wake up for feeds.

block ducts - i tried massage myself etc but no use. so for my case, best to look for LC loh.
 

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