(2008/11) November 2008

Oh dear hope the babies get well soon!!

Taka fair: Didnt get much today, just got a few home clothes for bb and the Pigeon toothbrush for baby, though my bb still bo gei haha!

Lynn: Hee my impression based on the Gymboree trial class haa..i m still thinking if shld sign up for a regular playgrp, in half mind abt it! And I think Gymboree more exp than Kindermusik. Thinking if shld wait till he is 1 yr old first hmmm... But if i sign up Gymboree, shld be the one at Tanglin Mall coz nearer and I will prob also choose Sun not sure if their teacher better!
 


peanut,
U must b at cold war w MIL now? How to stay together for few more yrs before ur new hse?

I took leave for tomorrow to take care of Lucas myself. PD told my mum he got bacteria infection .. shld be hands dirty or eat wrong stuffs. He so cranky now ... he see spoon/syringe he knows is fear time ... he will start to get away from our arms and cry. Refuse soy milk and medicine ... PD says he cannot take solid food so I cant feed him porridge which he prefers tat to milk. Today's intake is like only 200ml of soy milk. Haiz.
 
hi mummies,
thanks for all your concern and advice. baby has not puked since yesterday, thank God. she was a lil too sleepy to eat her cereal but the great news was that she finished her milk, all 180ml of it!! (which she NEVER does) will continue to go easy on her solid feeds for the next few days and monitor..she is still having e runs today but not as much and often as over e weekend..=D everyone says she is prob really teething..

gal.dolphin,
bb ability to fall asleep on her own can be quite subjective too, sometimes she is in a good mood and tired enough she is rather easy to put to nap. of coz there are days where she just wanna play and refuses to sleep so i just let her tire herself a lil more and then give her some milk (my hubby calls it my secret weapon,ha ha) and she will fall asleep very easily. i am totally guilty of letting baby sleep on my boobs. but she seems to be ok to fall back asleep on her own even if she wakes up after her feed. =P

jo,
do take care ya? things will get better, so just hang in there and try not to get too stressed up yeah? =)
 
HI ladies, sorry for interruption, I was browsing and noticed you talking about the 'cry it out' method.

Just thought I would share that the method is NOT about letting your baby 'cry it out'. The true method is not even called 'cry it out'.

The focus of the method is NOT that you should leave your baby to cry and cry and cry. The focus of the method is actually the part where the parent goes in to comfort and pat the child to sleep without picking up and without a feed. When the child cries, it is the signal for you to get ready to go in to comfort and pat him, and yes it is up to you to decide how long you want him to cry for you. But ultimately, you have to go in and comfort him. That is the true focus of the method. Certainly it is NOT to leave your baby crying and crying for half an hour. The aim of the method is to teach your baby that when it is bedtime and he cries, it WILL earn some patting and some comforting and a brief check from you but that's all it will earn. Gradually the child will think it is not worth his effort. The intention is not to achieve this by letting the baby 'cry it out', rather the intention is meant to be achieved by waiting for the baby to cry, then go in to check on him and pat and comfort him without picking up or feeding. It is actually similar to picking up your baby when he cries and putting him down when he calms down but still awake, except that there is no picking up here. Imagine if your baby could speak your language, what would he be saying? Basically, "Mummy, mummy!" at which you would go in and check on him instead of ignoring him, right? Excessive and prolonged crying is UNNECESSARY for the method to work and in fact is DISCOURAGED by the founder of the method, Dr Richard Ferber.

The method has been widely abused and misunderstood. If you are really interested in finding out more, please read the LATEST edition of Dr Ferber's book, where he has actually made some important modifications and clarifications to the original edition. Vomiting is considered RARE. Dr Ferber also says co-sleeping is fine, whatever works. Also, Dr Ferber only proposes that you start using this method when your baby is emotionally ready for it, which he says is sometime between 4 to 6 months.

I myself am not a supporter of this method. The very fact that there is controversy over the method already tells me that there is a risk that I might be hurting my child emotionally and psychologically, and I certainly do not want to take that risk. For those of you who choose this method, well, to each his own. Yes, there probably are babies who are well and fine on this method but my litmus test is this, since my baby is worth my life, am I willing to bet MY LIFE that I am not hurting my child in the long run? My answer is no. Would I be willing to GUARANTEE to anyone else that the method will not harm their baby in the long run? My answer is no. Any other answer would be silly, given the undeniable controversy surrounding this method. Also, like mummies always say, each child is different - so how do I know that my child will be unharmed like some, after all my baby could be different? I have only read a few books and websites, that certainly does not qualify me as any expert and that is certainly nothing compared to all the years of research that specialist doctors and academics have put into showing that this method is harmful. Yes, crying is not harmful but crying for prolonged periods certainly takes a toll emotionally on me, what more for a baby. Remember, Dr Ferber says you can only start using this when your baby is emotionally ready for it - babies are not born emotionally ready, we have to spend time nurturing their sense of security and trust first and that takes time.

Sleeping through the night is the aim. There are many ways to get there. If you want to try this method of Dr Ferber's, that is entirely your prerogative, but I beg you, if you want to do it, do it properly.
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Good luck whatever you decide and sweet dreams for everyone.
 
Forgot to add that, whether you agree or disagree that the method is harmful, leaving your child to cry and cry for more than 15 minutes is UNSAFE. Please please go in and check in on your baby when your baby cries. You don't have to pick her up, you don't have to feed her if you want to use Dr Ferber's method but please please don't leave your baby to cry for prolonged periods without checking in.

Please please read his book (latest edition) carefully and don't take other people's version of it. The method has its good points but it has been abused and misunderstood that people have lost sight of the fact that we are raising children, not pets and not soldiers.
 
Kindermusik Trial Class:
Kiki, thank you for organising the class.
My Bb (the one in brown sweater, me in the white strip top back facing the camera) very quiet in the class. He kept looking at the trainer, maybe he is concentrating? or thinking who is this person keep talking hahaa... i guess i won't be signing up the class for now, maybe until he knows how to walk.. very shiong to keep carrying him and dance around..

ya agree that a gathering with the babies would be more fun!


Jo: i strongly object to giving bb adult food.. and i always ask my in laws and parents not to give.. i very naggy abt this issue.. coz i scare bb will get sick or allergy.. ;p take care of ur bb hee...


nuts, u super leh haha i dun think i dare to shoot in laws back.. but staying together is very different la.. ;p anyway hope nini recover soon


outsider, ya i agree with u on the part with their sense of security and trust.. i scare if i leave him to cry or wakes up without seeing us, he will lose that trust and have the impression of us leaving him alone... so now i am still co-sleeping with him.. ;p but will slowly train him to sleep on his own like wat u suggest... hee...
 
Hi Outsider,

I can't help but feel that some bits of ur posts referred to me, esp since i m the only one that uses CIO on a regular basis in this thread. There are many points in ur posts i agree upon but of cos there are others i beg to differ.

1) yes, Ferber doesn't call it CIO. Whatever the term is, what the method is, is more impt. checking in on them in intervals is impt and I do state that on my previous posts (u might have missed them) that one has to check on the kid regularly. for myself, I don't even go past the 10mins mark. 10mins is the longest i let him cry without checking.

2) every method has their own controvesy. e.g. co-slping itself is controversial. so how?

3) It is silly to think that other methods has a higher guarantee that u won't harm ur baby. Nothing in life is guaranteed.

Of cos u raise very gd points like not listening to layman like me or u for a matter of fact. That's actually a very impt point. I don't call myself an expert (I'm only a first time mum) but i do make it a point not just to read mainstream articles and books, but also scientific journals, inclding high impact factor journals. I personally take wat i read online with a huge load of salt. Even medical and psychological journals have different take of the whole situation.

U also raised a gd point that there are many alternatives out there and that mummies shd explore the rest and see what they are comfy with. again this is impt cos many ppl just wanna use CIO cos they think it is the most effective or the shortest method there is. They try it only to realise that they aren't or their babies aren't able to handle it.

Lastly nobody here is actually advocating Ferber's method. i agree with u all babies are different and i think the MOST impt thing when it comes to slp training is routine starting as early as u can in the baby's life. A lot of parents don't realise this is impt and when they are finally tired they want to implement a routine. by then 'bad' habits have developed and it takes more heartache to train them to slp.
 
<font color="ff6000"><font size="+1">Good morning Super mummies
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<font color="119911">Outsider
Thank you for pointing out an impt detail in the CIO method that we may/may not have overlooked.
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We are not experts here like what Bear have mentioned and like you, only sharing our experiences.
I believe that for most parents who have tried the CIO method be it once or twice or frequently do know how heartwrenching the process is and virtually impossible to NOT check on baby during this trial.
If you have seen the sleeping training notes that i've pass around and read in detail, the strict CIO or Extinction method (meaning CIO w/o any checks) is not encouraged. There are also many other methods introduced.

Ultimately, we all just hope that our babies can have uninterrupted sleep and a routine(babies thrive on this consistency). A happy baby would make a happy mummy/daddy.
Agree with Bear that having a routine is something very impt, and the later we start, the more challenges we will face. Of cos better late than never. At the end of the day, is still up to you to decide whats impt for you and for your baby.

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<font color="aa00aa">Diarrhea
I've a qns to ask... how to tell if baby having diarrhea? I must sound silly but i really don't knw what to differentiate the poo leh..
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aden'sMum, i also got a silly qn to ask. What 'routine' means?
Does it mean doing the same thing at the same time everyday? Or more than that?

Ah nut, how is nini?
Jo, is Lucas better liao?
 
hi mummies,
so glad to know that I am not alone in trying to sleeptrain my baby. and its very useful to hear the experiences of you mummies here, esp those who have done indepth research into this topic
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it has been such a challenge getting her to sleep.. since she was very young, she doesnt get very much sleep and we (are guilty of) trying all ways and means to get her to sleep, including latching and rocking. Even then, she still wakes up AT LEAST 2x a night. When she was teething, she would wake up almost every hour.

It is getting increasing challenging and frustrating putting her to sleep esp as she gets older and she knows that when she cries mummy will come get her. We have never really got to the stage of letting her CIO alone in her cot, only because she is already crying and screaming in our arms even before we put her down in her cot (we have checked all the boxes eg wet diaper etc), so the concept of letting her self-soothe to sleep or even patting her to sleep is very utopian to me! by the time she finally KOs, its usually 1030-11pm already
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It is esp tiring for me cos she only wants me to put her to sleep. Once we tried to let daddy rock her to sleep and she vomitted all over him, haha!

does any mummy have any advice for this desperate mummy?
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aden'smummy, you mentioned u have some sleep training notes? can u share them with me pls? TIA!
 
adens mummy,
my baby once pooped 6x in a day (some were quite runny) when we introduced a new food to her. we thot it was diarrhea but paed said it could be intolerance to the food. we waited for a few days and tried the same food again and the poop slowly regulated to 3x a day
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glad gal,
i brought my baby for a gymboree trial too and she liked it very much! it was sunday too but I cant rmbr the teacher's name (silly me, should hv taken note!), wat time was your slot? have u tried any other play gyms? thinking of bringing her to more trials before I decide if I want to sign up.
 
<font color="aa00aa">Kiki
Watery poos, like issit the diaper will be stained like when they pee, but there's residue ? Oh man.. i dunno whether u knw what i mean anot.. heheh..

happywifey
PM me k! then i'll forward to you the notes.. but u must pick a good time to read cos feedback from mummies here is its quite cheem and might take awhile to digest, cos its very comprehensive. I read like 5-6times myself.. hahah..

Routine is like the same thing happening the same time everyday. Like.. for me previously we tried, Bath, Bottle, Book, Bed.. so its like, when its time to take a bathe, baby knws what to expect next, and then soon will knw its time to sleep ler.. But u can implement your own routine that best suits your lifestyle ba..
I started with sleep training and routine bcos i'm a SAHM and alone taking care of the hse,dog,baby really drove me nuts. BB A only will doze off after 10pm and wake up frequently, and i was BF somemore... so basically i had no time for myself, and everyday i was a wreck.
We started to train him to sleep at 9.30, then 9, then gradually moved it to 7pm. He went from co-sleeping, to sleeping in the bassinet beside our bed, and then in his own room in his cot. This timing worked for me, but might not work for working mummies, cos by the time u knock off, i'm sure you might wanna still come home and spend some time with baby before he/she sleeps.. </font>
 
<font color="aa00aa">Artscow
I just received my photobook! I think its great! for the price that we are paying, it's really worth it! but try to avoid using pics taken fr poor lighting, or low res, cos pics might not turn out as clear. But i think the photobook is great for gifts!
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Xmas is round the corner.. hehehe</font>
 
aden's mum, i see
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Thx
Yup, if my girl slps at 7pm hor, then i will nvr get to spend time with her! And she will probably wake up at 3am!

U suspect your boy has diarrhea?
 
<font color="aa00aa">Lillian
He ok lar, just that, then again, i also dunno cos i can't tell if he's had a diarrhea before *slaps forehead* </font>
 
Bear,
I do not know whether you are the only one using this method, from what I scan through, a few mummies are trying it out.

I am not advocating any method, I am not an expert. Each mummy can decide what she wants to do. All I am saying is that if you want to do ferber's method then do it the way that it is meant to be done.

Yes, a lot of methods have risks but you should consider what these risks are. Co-sleeping may foster lack of independence - is that such a terrible risk when your baby has years of dependency still? Do you think your child will still be sleeping with you his whole life? On the contrary, the risks associated with ferber's method are lack of intimacy and threatened loss of security. Are those risks acceptable to you?

I am not saying not to use this method. I am just saying, use it correctly.

Good for you if you are using this method correctly. My post is not directed at you, I do not know you.

For any mummy thinking of using this method, I would ask them, Are you a mummy who dislikes 'clingy' babies or a mummy who doesn't talk much to your baby? High IQ but low EQ? Desire to be right outweighs being kind to other people's feelings? What is more risky to you - loss of sense of security or childhood dependency? If you are like those things I mentioned and you think childhood dependency is worse than loss of sense of security, then perhaps you have a fear of intimacy, an insecurity, a feeling that you constantly have to prove yourself. Then you must be even more careful to use this method correctly otherwise your baby may end up just like you.

Bear, I am sorry if I offended you but truly, this is not directed at you. You obviously have already come a long way, there would be no point in telling you to do things differently. What is done is done. Be at peace. Relax.
 
Aden'smummy, yes agree with you and glad you share my understanding of the method that comforting your child is essential. I am not criticising the method, I am only pointing out that it must be used correctly.
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Since we are all not experts, let's do things the way the experts say they should be done. I guess you are the one helping the mummies here on sleep training, great, thankful that you understand the various methods.
 
<font color="aa00aa">Outsider
I'm not the only one helping mummies here, in fact, all the mummies here are
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Artscow
I just realised i had 8 free photobooks but all expired liaoz.. talk abt blurz..
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<u><font color="ff0066"> Kindermusik Trial</font></u>
Long posting warning!

My humble feedback on Kindermusik Trial, just my own observation during the class and BBQ 's behaviour, so might not be so applicable to your baby, hee :

Theme: Cock-a-doodle-MOO!
Educator: Teacher Doreen (quite good thou didn't really 'sing like a bird' :D)
Target Baby: BBQ
Age: 10 mths
Personalities: Little Active Cranky Brat who would rather play than sleep

<u>Class Contents:</u>
Mummies Time: (about 30 mins) Warm up (Ball Play), Introduction, Massage, Drum Play, 'Egg-shaker' Play, Exercise time (hayride, not sure who's the one doing exercise thou), Vocal Play (farm animal sound)
- 5 mins Break, Change Shift -
Daddies Time: (about 15 mins) Story Telling + Somemore exercise
- End -

Generally, mummy found it quite difficult as BBQ was super active and got cranky whenever mummy tried to 'control' him, ended up crawled all over the place and snatched other babies' drums (paiseh!)
Agree that maybe will take few more lessons for them to get used to it (hmm..maybe one more Trial class?)

Somehow for similar reason as glad_gal, mummy prefers Gymboree, maybe Baby boys need bigger area to explore and exert their never-ending energy ?

Cheers!
 
lilian,
Since morning, no fever le ... hope dun come back again. Diarrhea once middle of last nite. Still v grouchy .. abit only cry.

aden's mummy,
diarrhea is like .. watery, yellow-green color stool
 
kiki: my bb also like yours.. if that the case i also think Gymboree will more suitable for your boy. as there are slides and ramps for him to climb. No storytelling as I feel at this time of stage they are not attentive. Gymboree has more activity on practising on their spines, legs and arms. more on movement and the best thing i like is the bubbles and the parachute.. maybe we can organise one at tanglin mall. i try the one at Harbourfront, it used to be very good until one of the teachers has left leaving the others, i feel is boring. I went to Tanglin Mall that time to buy some toys for brandon.. the place there are more spacious with individual private rooms. maybe i try calling and ask them if they can arrange for us for a trial run.
one last thing, i like Gymboree as both daddy n mummy can join in the action.
 
Ah nian...
Ah ni seems to react better with e new set of medications.. at least no more rashes.. But hor hav ti struggle to feed her.. cry until v cham lor.. A lot lei.. 3 types of med + 1 more b4 bedtime. then 2 of them each time mus 4ml..

Anyway my sis jus brot her b to doc and confirm also gena bronchitis so mus hav caught from my gal..
 
<font color="aa00aa">Jo
i'll bear that in mind.. thanks!
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Lynn
I paid $11.99 for an additional 1 page plus shipping. The promo i used was $6.99 + $5(shipping + additional 1 page) so it worked out to be about $17+ </font>
 
Jo
not in a shot but stil quite fast at around 3 shots for me (for 4ml.. 2ml i'll try to do it in 1 shot). cannot bit by bit they cry until so cham gotto get it done and over with.
 
Hi all,

Just to share
notice sum mummies prefer gymboree..how abt my gym? there's one coming soon at Tampines..check this out..

OPEN HOUSE (FREE) My Gym @ Tampines
PLEASE CALL 6440 9916 TO REGISTER NOW
Date: 5 September (SAT) to 13 September (SAT)
Time: 10am to 5pm
Duration: 1 hour per session
For: Children age between 6 months to 8 years
Cost: FREE
 
Kiki,
for active bbs, i think gymboree etc those with gym facilities are better for them. kindermusik has a softer approach..more for gals i guess? hehe..
 
Ah nut
hope ur nini is gettin better...i noe how it feels..u noe when it comes to medicine taking, i will be the one feeding her...cos the rest (maid, mum or hub) so scared to hear her cry like mad...sigh..but wat to do..for me, i oso have the 'get it over and done with' approach. No choice...if we take a longer time to feed her, she will cry even more
 
GYMBOREE: ladies, i call just now.. unfortunately the one at Tanglin Mall they are fully filled up. cannot arranged a class for us.
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Harbourfront one is a francise n Tanglin Mall is their main headquarter.. no wonder so popular there..

Mygym: very far for me..
 
aden's mummy
me still havent touch that free photobook..expire liao..sigh...wen i wanna do at home, my computer mac, when i want to do at work, so difficult..ppl looking at me leh..sigh
 
huh? old AXN? The ex-Nissan showroom? Tampines Square issit?
Ya, staying at Tampines. Gymbabes also in Tampines leh.

The website didnt say abt t new Tampines branch leh
 
Hi aden's mummy..

Your sleep notes are pretty good.. but I really feel CIO method (with PUPD) just isn't for my girl.. I tried.. and i must say lisa is a very stubborn girl.. she was like crying for more than 2 hours not giving up to lie down to sleep.. I really am quite lost.. sigh...

Recently she is also teething which is probably making her more agitated!! Like last night she kept waking up every 2 hours!!

Happywifey.. I'm also in the same boat as you...It's really hard to function at work with such poor quality sleep.. I dun need too much sleep but at least a straight 5 hours would be good!! Haha!!

Sleep methods...

At the end of the day, it all boils down to wat works for ur baby and the family.. And if you have to modify an "established" method and it works.. I dun see a problem.. Life doesn't come with written instructions (besides the fact that we all have to do the best we can) you make those instructions for urself.. what works for u doesn't mean it will work for others...

Same goes for baby sleep training.. our babies are unique individuals.. 1 sleep method may work well for some babies.. training a baby to sleep (and raising a child) isn't a scientific experiment..where we have to follow a fixed protocol.. (even in science experiments, there are some steps that have to be tweaked!!) In today's age of internet and easy access to LOADS of information, a lot of studies get sensationalized!! Especially those journals with high impact factor!! Cos they are written by some renowned dude in that field or cos they know the editor of these journals (it's usually overlapping)...

Being a mom is not about following steps.. but using ur instinct and the best of your ability to guide the child..

I personally feel those harsh cio method wouldn't scar ur child for life.. the most impt thing is to be there when ur child is old enough (when he is more aware of his/her suroundings).. and esp in pri/sec school.. they really need you then... and at that point of time... they REMEMBER!!
 
Kiki: Wow you had a very detailed explanation of kindermusik :p

Aden's mummy: Oooh can't wait to do a photo album too after i got my SL photos! :p Quite cheap the price...

Lynn: Oh
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so we can't go for a trial at Tanglin Mall?? Not even if we are existing members..Only pass by last Sun, but didnt see the exterior, not so visible like HFC.

My gym: http://www.mygymsingapore.com/contactus.html
Lynn, there is another at Great World! Funny why the other website dont show this location..

CIO: Well, just sharing my personal experience, me and hb decided that we would just sit down by the baby in his cot each nite if that is what he needs to sleep. [Btw, my bb has been sleeping in his cot since day 1]
I used to advocate just letting him cry to sleep after his last feed coz can tell he wants to latch on purely for comfort. Guess was quite envious that some babies can just 'put them in cot awake' and they will auto sleep on their own. But in the end hb decided that to let him cry too long is not that gd for him emotionally esp now that he is older :x He could also be soothed by the pacifier (gd or bad hee) so we decided to give him when he starts to whine and fuss. But we would try to slowly wean him off the pacifier luckily he will autom spit it out after he fall asleep. But i already count myself lucky that he usu only wakes up only once (or none on gd days) at nite. I understand the frustration for those waking every 2 hrly, really tiring man! Hopefully each parent can find the best way to soothe the baby to sleep longer and yet not kill ourselves emotionally or physically.
 
Re: CIO &amp; Sleep Training Methods
Personally, I am also one of those that buay tarhan BB cry so no CIO methods for me. Yet, because I am a light sleeper that can be woken by BB's movements, I need my BB to sleep through. She dun sleep = I dun sleep. So I went from rocking BB in the very early days to partial "co-sleeping". Now, either my maid or myself will keep BB company whilst she fall asleep (either lying near her on the mattress or standing some distance away from her). When she is almost asleep or sometimes asleep, we leave. I find that this works esp well now that she has seperation anxiety (has been for some time already). She sleeps through from 8pm till 5+/6+ when she wakes for a feed. If she's very awake after the feed, she will play with my hubby for a while before she takes another nap till 7+/8+. If she is still sleepy after the feed, I let her sleep with us. When we wake up, my maid will guard her on my bed till she wakes up ard 7+.

I guess each method has its good and bad points. The dangers is to take any method to the extreme which I don't think any mum here is doing. Hence, I think there is no need for anyone to come in here and try to imply that mums here are doing the wrong thing.
 
adenmummy: i find that i upload the photos damn slow. do you need to change the size of your photo?

fifi: i also used the same method. which i think it realli helps.

glad_glad: i don mind trying it out at great world.
 


aaah i see a lot of healthy discussion on sleep training.

For mommies who need help or just "professional" support with sleep training for baby: http://www.babysleepfairy.com/home

I think she charges $45/hour. My friend used her with great success after 2 sessions. She also does home visits as well.

I am contemplating using her at the last resort -- just to give myself the extra confidence I need esp when the baby cries!!
 

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