(2005/08) Aug/Sept 05' MTBs

re: cruise

I booked from Konsortium Express & Tours at Golden Mile Tower. I just called request a fax copy of price list. They said the promotion just ended yesterday. haizz.... I should share with your earlier. The promotion not only for Wed is for all depart but for Low Season and certain days only. I choose that day coz 12 May is PH and we only need take to 1 day leave. Weekend cruise too expensive liao.
 


re: 8 April Trial

mummies ... the organiser just informed me that the group seem to be getting too big and she offered to help us arrange for another session ... also she will make adjustments to the program to suit our bb's age .. .ok with u all?

i think its actually better cos our bb are like 2-3mths older than theirs ... am thinking of organising it after the HFMD die down ... wat think u all?? let me know k ...

temple ...

thanks ... me called kelly liao ... so she said that the studio use some special paint that bacteria will be killed under the white light and all music instruments are cleaned before each class ... anyway our class is the 1st class for tat day ... also all bbs will be checked before going in for the lesson

so think should be okie lar ...

re: cruise

me thinking of going for cruise too ... but maybe when YC is older lar ... if i bring him to a cruise and he still wakes up everynight to cry ... i think i will feel so sad to be stuck in the cabin with a cranky and crying baby ... bad hor this mummy heehee

ting ting ...

v good liao ... u have BF zephen for so long already ... take it easy lar ... we have to stop 1 day one right?
 
Hi phoebe & tingting,

ya..guess majority of the guys r the same lah...sometimes play until talk to them also no response...wah...i luv cakes and muffins leh..sounds delicious..
kao_drool.gif
..but too far for me to travel there...
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seabreeze, i'm all for the idea of a separate class..
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if u want a break of sorts, try a local hotel instead? what i did the last time was to put zephan at my mum's place during the day time while hb n i enjoy at the hotel for a few hours, then bring baby to the hotel at night to sleep.. quite relaxing too!
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cakey, that's too bad.. agree that the cruise prices are really expensive!

hehe shao yen, if have gathering i see if can place order for the muffins.. btw, for those working in tanjong pagar area, there's a stall at amoy hawker center that sells muffins n brownies.. quite yummy too!
 
Harlo mummies,

Been so busy to come into this thread....so good to see that it's still so active! Are all your babies sleeping through the night now? My gal Janelle (6 1/2 months old) still wakes up at 2.30am....also everytime got to pat her to sleep....any solutions? It's really exhausting to wake up and pat her to sleep. If we let her cry on her own, she can cry until non-stop....praying that she'll outgrow this soon.

Hey mummies, let me know if got any gathering, would love to join u all together with the lil ones!
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re: gathering cum trial

how abt we have a gathering cum trial? then its a good chance for all of us to gather once again and for the bb to do something together

i dun mind offering bishan again or anyone has a place to offer?
 
Cat_tail
*patpat* I alrady think you have done your best and as far as I know, I think Edna is doing very well...Has like 5 pearlies!Anton has none so far haha

Cakey
As far as I am concerned, I have always wanted a good routine for Anton even way before he is born cos I want him to develop good habits next time when he grows older since he has to eat with the adults next time which is pretty much a proper time for breakfast, lunch and dinner. I wanted him to sleep by 7 pm and wake up by 7am so he can go to school without me dragging out of bed when he goes to playgroup/preschool and after sleeping for 12hours during the night, he would have enough energy and not feel tired in the moring when he is in school. When he is about 8-10 months, I will drop his morning nap. That is why I am so strict about his schedule now though others might not agree and even my mum said I am too strict in setting up a schedule for Anton .She said she will let me sleep wherever we go but I guess I know what is best for my own child.

Cupcake
Hee, actually Anton eats 6/7 cubes in all for dinner cos I will also give him one/two cubes of pureed fruit after dinner. I don't nurse him to sleep cos I don't want him to make a habit. SO usually will rock him slightly to sleep but with his head on my shoulders. If he is tired enough, he will sleep within 5-10 mins.
If your baby cries in the middle of the night, you got to decipher whether it is out of habit or out of hunger. If you feel that she is eating enough during the day, she should not be waking up in the night and most probably she is waking up out of habit. If that's so, that is when u can try giving her water instead of milk.

What time does your girl wake up? Maybe you can be like me, bring your daughte to see the daddy when he is dressing up...
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Unless your daughter wakes up later than your hubby...
 
re going out
I'll bring cereal, milk and even puree veg if the outing clashes w haowen's mealtime. Already standby a thermo flask to bring out his porridge.

Seabreeze
I'm ok with the gathering cum trial. Also think better to postpone until HFMD dies down...
 
brownie,
DIY hair not easy leh... I always wanted to try on Keyon, but end up still bring him to salon.
Today, spend another $15 for his hair cut again, just 3 mths only!

cmy,
har.. cruise promo 1 for 1?
Aiya, I booked too early liao. 'Dui' man... :p

seabreeze,
Thanks for checking with Kindermusik on the HFMD, more 'fang xin' now.
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Welcome, feather!
 
hi mummies,

any1 interested in getting tis sassy busy bug stroller bar fr me?? thot of asking u gals 1st b4 i put it up 4 sale in d mkt plc.

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d original price is $32.90. m asking 4 $25. i bought it when my boy was born. it's lightly used less than 5x. reason 4 selling is coz we hv changed 2 a new pram, so gt no use 4 it anymore. collection is at suntec or bedok reservoir rd. pls pm me if u r interested.
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morning gal, TGIF!

really cannot say things too early... was just "boasting" about zephan's sleeping pattern yesterday, and last night he refused to sleep until 10pm! haiz.. out to prove mummy wrong.. :p

<font color="0000ff">Martin was a slow worker and found it difficult to hold down a job. After a visit to the job centre he was offered work at the local Zoo. When he arrived for his first day, the keeper aware of his reputation told him to take care of the tortoise section.

Later, the keeper dropped by to see how Martin was getting on and found him standing by an empty enclosure.

"Where are the tortoises?" he asked him.

"I can't believe it" said Martin "I just opened the door and then.....Whooooosh!" </font>
 
brownie
were your babies conceived naturally? Such a blessing to hv twins... altho i can't imagine taking care of 2 babies at the same time!

seabreeze
yeah i'm ok with postponment of trial... but must see new date &amp; time whether i can make it or not.

triniti
hey, give water when baby wakes at night? I've been doing that for abt 4 months... doesn't seem to make him stay asleep... people tell me he might be teething, but until now no teeth yet, he's still waking 2-3 times a night... give/restrict midnight feed, changed the brand of his diapers, experimented with different type of pyjamas, sleep association bolster/toy, early/late bedtime, falling asleep in the cot instd of in our arms, change sleeping location, with/without aircon... the only thing i haven't tried is pacifier. Sigh, 1 yr milestone approaching, hope a miracle happens =)
 
triniti,

She wakes up latest by 7am, she is our alarm clock, cos she will always 'sing' loudly to herself or pat my hubby's hand.
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I always screw up her routine during weekend cos my hubby n i wants to sleep in later, then its a hectic adjustment back for her on weekdays. I shd be more disciplined. On some days like today, she dun wanna sleep at 9.00am ( I will put her in bed for 45 mins hearing her talk to herself), but will be so tired by 10.30am that i let her sleep, then it screw up her schedule again.

Giving water helps? I heard of that, but I direct latch her all these while so she dunno how to drink from bottle. Have been trying to train but without success.

Your boy is so good to be able to play by himself, mine will want people to carry or play with her, read her books etc. v tiring for me as I work from home and currently I can only work when she sleeps.
 
wendyg
If that is the case, I think u might have to try the controlled crying method if he wakes up is not because of hunger. I know it sounds cruel but if you want him to sleep through, I guess that is the last method..
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cupcake
I know what you mean...I am so used to wake up at 7 am now while my hubby sleeps in till 10am-11am during the weekends. However, I have a live-in helper therefore once I entertain my son for a while, my helper will bring him to take a bath and feed his breakfast while I can take an hour nap before taking care of him again. Sundays, will have to take care of Anton cos my helper don't work on Sunday. Even then, I am the one soley feeding him, changing his diaper and putting him to sleep. My hubby likes to relax when he is at home and only plays with my boy.

I think at this stage, if you continue not to train her to take the bottle, it might be harder to wean her off your breast should you decide to stop breastfeeding, unless you decided to wean her off by herself which may take months or years.

Actually, my helper used to carry my boy around when she do her chores but I told her firstly, it is not safe and secondly, it will be a bad habit for him cos he will want to be carried all the time...so I bought plenty of toys and educational DVDs for him to watch so he keep himself entertained. Children in general has extremely low attention lifespan but at the same time, the brain is like a sponge, they absorb information so fast so it is important to be aware of the environment we create for the baby to ensure high quality stimulating environment. A high quality stimulating environment can increase your child's IQ as much as 15 points and also decrease as much as 15 points if they are in a poor quality stimulated environment. So I was thinking I could have been much smarter if my mum has given me a high quality stimulating environment haha
 
triniti
my boy is same as seabreeze's boy... in the middle of the night will turn &amp; roll all over &amp; get stuck in 1 position can't move.. his cries will get louder &amp; intensify.. in the end i hv to re-position him, give him water, and last resort pat him back to sleep. Falling asleep at bedtime is ok.. just that he can't stay asleep until 7am...
 
wendyg
Actually Anton will do the same thing, I usually put him down in tummy position and then when I check on him again he will be facing up and then again tummy down position but so far have not got himself stuck yet...
How many hours does Issac sleeps in the daytime? He should be sleeping in total less than 2.5 hrs in the day time....
 
hi wendyg and triniti,

i experience the same problem. my gal always cries for help once she rolls over on her bed...that's what always cause her to wake up. I also end up patting her to sleep...becomes a bad habit...

anyone got thrush from breastfeeding before? need to seek any medication or will it resolve by itself?
 
triniti
mine will rotate clockwise on his back &amp; get stuck across the cot. Or will roll onto his tummy &amp; suddenly sit upright. Daytime naps total max 2.5hr.. can vary from 30min to 1.5hr. Morning 9-10 or 10.30am, afternoon &amp; final nap is abt 2-3pm..
 
Hi wendy
ok what time is Issac bedtime? Because for Anton he sleeps at 7pm...I make sure he sleeps less than 2 hrs in the daytime so he can sleep through the night...

Does Issac eat enough solids and at least 600ml of milk during the day?
 
hi wendyg,
Is it possible to 'teach' Iszac how to rotate back or get out of the stuck position by himself? Sometime i too tire just carry my gal to my bed and let her roll/flip/crawl till she tire and fell asleep by herself. Sometime she takes as long as an hour before she finally decide to stop moving around and close her eyes to sleep. In the mean time i just half-sleep and lie beside her.
 
Re getting stuck
haowen oso sometimes get stuck, so what I did is to place pillow/bolster on either side of him. Make it more difficult for him to rotate or flip cos not enough space....
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haowen so good boy.. mine if kena stuck, he'll cry very loud. so now he's occupying most of the bed and i only get one third of it.
 
wendyg ...

hahaha same same lar ... i havent resort to giving him plain water yet ... think will do so when i cant tahan anymore ...

ixwong ...

no use ler ... YC will take the pillow or bolster and eat ... or he will attempt to roll over it ... he is a v rough boy ar

cakey ...

oh thats what i do oso ... when he wakes up at those funny timing ... i will place him bet my hubby and me on the bed and let him crawl all over while i lie down there to rest ... until he make noise and show sign of wanting to zzz then i will entertain him again

triniti ...

u are v lucky tt anton is so co-operative
 
triniti
hope he gets enuf milk coz i latch him on for first &amp; last feed when i'm home. Day time he gets milk via bottle. As for solids, he'll eat until he's full &amp; won't open his mouth anymore. Cereal/ porridge, lots vege, fruit. 3 square meals with morning &amp; afternoon snack.
These days his bedtime is earlier.. abt 7.30pm. Previous times can be 9 or 10pm, that was when he took a 3rd nap while waiting for us to come home.
Missed out 1 thing: i also tried putting my T-shirt in his cot - so that my smell lingers.. but didn't work either..
I haven't tried pacifier &amp; co-sleeping. Not too keen on either.

cakey
i dun pick isaac up when he wakes at night.. if he wants to crawl around at 3am, i just doze off beside him &amp; let him do what he wants (he sleeps on a single bed now, not in cot). After some time he'll wake me by pulling my hair or pinching me or slapping me... then i'll make him lie down &amp; pat him to sleep. That'll be abt 1hr after he wakes.. 8)

ixwong
not enuf space to flip - dat's 1 reason why isaac wakes. His cot was too small. Now on his bed, i saw how he flipped - he will flip from his right side to his left side via his tummy, not on his back. In his cot, he would keep trying to flip &amp; bang himself against the side of the cot.. i could hear it from my room. With baby pillows &amp; bolsters to cushion him, he'll just roll over them. Need adult pillows &amp; bolsters, which can't fit into baby cot... Then he'll wake up anyway, coz he can't flip. *sigh* I nvr knew i could survive with so little sleep for so long..
 
Wendyg and Seabreeze
both your boys really persistent hoh...For haowen, he'll return to sleep after a bottle of milk. My mum said he's addicted to milk (drink abt 1000ml per day + 2 solids). He must drink milk before willing to settle down to sleep, although sometimes water oso can....
 
ixwong, maybe time to intro the 3rd solid meal? think for babies their age daily milk intake is only about240ml x 3.

wendy, ever considered letting him sleep in the play pen? since urs doesn't come with mattress, can add 1 layer to the pen then let him sleep there.. at least when he tosses n bangs it's against a soft material. there're mid-size bolsters n pillows that are more suitable for babies that age. can buy fr kiddy palace.

nowadays my own sleep timing also haywire.. was so tired by 9pm that i dozed off, and now cannot sleep properly.. maybe time to sleep train myself... :p
 
hi, would anyone like to take my slot for kindermusik trial at tanglin mall (Sunday 1pm) S$ 22.50 ?

Kindly sms me at 9682-8305

My baby's not feeling well,so I wish to opt out to let him rest at home. thanks.
(extract)..
Kindermusik
2nd April, 1pm
Cost: $22.50 (+5% GST)
Venue:
Tanglin Mall Studio
163 Tanglin Road
#03-11B Tanglin Mall
Singapore 247933
Tel: 65 - 6467 1789
Fax: 65 - 6235 3206
www.kindermusik.com.sg
Email: [email protected]

7) rayray
 
Hello aunties,

My 2 side teeth have grown!!! Mummy calls me a 6-teeth monster now. Hahaha... She said I am now a big boy and she rewarded me with my very first motor-car! I am so excited!

396455.jpg


396456.jpg


396457.jpg
 
Annisa
Your baby is so cute!!!! hehehehehhehe

Cupcake
I think it is best not to confuse your child with the mixed schedule so maybe you can try to wake up earlier ( I know u wanna sleep in hehe) so your baby won't get so disturbed with the abrupt change...

Wendyg
I think it is time to monitor the amt of milk you give to Issac..hehe u so nice to Issac, I will make sure Anton finishes his meals cos I know he can finish it just that sometimes I don't give him his favourites so he is not so keen. What I do is I will alternate his fruit and meals so he will finish his food hehe

re:Handedness
Which is your child's dominant hand? I always thought Anton is right handed but until recently he started to use his left hand more often....has any of your babies done that? Now I don't know which one is the dominant hand.
 
hee I found my own answer to my question

Lefty or Righty?
Don't expect your baby to prefer one hand over the other anytime soon. At 12 months, most are still using both about equally, says Daniel Kessler, M.D. Even if your child favors one hand for eating or throwing, that preference can change during the second or even third year. And because your baby is born with a tendency toward left- or right-handedness (it often runs in families), there's no need to help him "choose" his dominant hand; some experts think that interfering might, in fact, be detrimental.

Though uncommon, a baby's consistently favoring one hand during the first year can indicate a neuromuscular problem; talk to your pediatrician if you notice that your baby uses only one hand or one side of his body.
 
Anissa,
Your boy is a teeth champion! Edna lose liao!
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re: Handedness
triniti,
Seems like u found the answer.
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If I am not wrong, if both pareants are right handed, most likely your child will follow. How abt u &amp; your hubby?
 
hi, would anyone like to take my slot for kindermusik trial at tanglin mall too? (Sunday 1pm) S$ 22.50 ?

Kindly sms me at 91888218

i am not feeling well,so I wish to opt out to rest at home. thanks.
(extract)..
Kindermusik
2nd April, 1pm
Cost: $22.50 (+5% GST)
Venue:
Tanglin Mall Studio
163 Tanglin Road
#03-11B Tanglin Mall
Singapore 247933
Tel: 65 - 6467 1789
Fax: 65 - 6235 3206
www.kindermusik.com.sg
Email: [email protected]

1) Brent
 
Wow,
All your babies take so few hours of nap? Mine sleeps average 4-6 hours of nap leh. Sometimes 10am to 12 or 1pm, 3pm to 6pm.
Think sleep too much. But if he don't sleep, then i not free leh. Sigh... Dunno how.


So far, i only fed bb Kai Heinz Cereals and Banana puree. He seems to like the Banana puree only the second time i fed him. But doesn't want to take alot of it. Just Half a teaspoon only. As for the rice cereals, he seems to like it only if i mix it purely with BM. If i mix it with BM and dilute it with a little bit of water, he doesn't want it leh. Sigh... sooo fussy.

triniti,
Any educational videos that you find interesting or worth buying? Can share?
 
triniti
sometimes it becomes such a tiresome affair.. he shuts his mouth tight &amp; i use all my tricks to make him laugh but when i try to stuff in the last spoonful of food he'll shut his mouth again.. Last few spoonfuls can take 30min to feed... so we thought just let it be lah. Don't want makan time to be such a chore for baby &amp; us. Amazingly he doesn't like peach.. 1 of the sweetest fruit around (in my opinion), but he won't take a 2nd spoonful after he tasted it. 2nd day feeding him peach.

eileenp
my boy is 8m+ liaoz.. yours abt 6m right?

tingting
we will all get backache if we put him down in the playpen &amp; hv to pat him to sleep. Who knows, i may just climb into the playpen with him. haha.

anissa
how much u spend on your boy's haircut? heh heh
u bought him a pink car?
 
Re twins
wendy, i was on fertility treatment but my sis had twins as well.

Re handedness
my boy's dominant hand is also left though none of our immediate family members are left-handed. Hope it will change when he is older.

Re pillow
Hv been thinking whether i shd start introduing pillow to bbs. so far, they hv been sleeping on a folder cloth diaper as pillow. H/w, wonder if there is any merit introducing pillows when they toss and turn, move up, down and even rotate 90 or 180 degree during their sleep? Will probably be quite uncomfortable if the pillows ended up below their bodies instead of their head?
 
Soli I see wrongly the milk intake from 6-8mth is 240ml but times 3... Also feel funny how come they just need 240ml...

When I see all your BB progressing so well, I am feeling so down... Justen just don't like to eat, last time we have a hard time giving him milk, and we tot that after he start solid everything will change but I am wrong... I have give him peach, pear, carrot, pea, potato and papaya and the only item that he entertain me for a few spoonful is papaya. Asking him to open his mouth for food is so difficult, I will be overjoy if he open his mouth to eat his cereal but most of the time he just disappointing me. I feel that I am reaching my limit every weekend seem so long to me, sometime I just feel that if he just drink milk and don't take solid that will be great. But that is not the right way... Haii think I need to keep on trying.

Plan to give him porriage tomorrow, this is his first attempt can anyone advise how should I prepare it...
 
Brownie
I also didn't give Justen pillow reason is afraid that he will get trap in it... I didn't give him blanket too. I think I am a lousy mom I just don't know what is good for him.
 
triniti,

He is becoming very notti these days. Keep wanting my attention only and refuses to let anyone else carry him
sad.gif
Wonder when he will get over this phrase...


cat_tail,

*LOL* Clarence has his first 2 teeth at 3 mth. Guess he is an earlier developer when it comes to that cos he is very greedy. Can't stop eating!


wendyg,

I have cut Clarence's hair 3 times already. 1st 2 times at those barber shop. I think it's abt $10. Can't remember liao. Today just brought him to Suntec for his 3rd cut. It costs me $12 as I have the Suntec Privilege Card.

Yeah, got him a pink car. Had wanted the green one but after I paid for the car, Kiddy Palace told me the green one is spoilt and if I don't take the pink one, I will have to wait for the next shipment
sad.gif
His leg is long enough to step onto the pedal now so the car can actually move on its own! But he still doesn't know how to use the steering wheel...
 
eileenp
Anton loves Sesame street. I let him watch the ones which have mainly songs in it since I don't think at this age, he is that keen on alphabets and numbers....

I also bought the MagIQ ( I like it myself personally) It come with an interactive toy. you can check it out at www.tinylove.com

wendyg
Not all peaches are sweet...Some of them might smell sweet but actually there is a tinge of sourness in it. So now I taste all the fruits and vege to make sure they taste sweet and not sour ( or bitter for the vegetables)...Maybe you can try different variety of food ? Sometimes, baby can be bored with the same food...

Poko
Don't feel down...If your baby is less than 6 mths old, he might not be ready to feed on solids yet..sometimes, you gotta feed it progressively and in slow transition so he will take time to get adjusted to the new food. For e.g, 3 days ago I introduced chicken in Anton's diet and he didn't like it..and I realise its because I put too much and it is a new food so he is not used to it. On the second day, I only put half the portion and he is more ready for it. Today, I put slightly less chicken with the same amt of 30ml of FM and he likes it better and he finished his food!So alot of times, it is trial and error to see what best suit your child. Have more faith and don't lose your patience cos they are the best gift that God has given to us
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This is also a chance to nurture ourselves to be a better person for our children
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Always remember for everything you give to your child, have a taste first to see if the texture is smooth enough for your baby..sometimes, it might not be smooth enough or not sweet enough...

As for porridge, I give Anton the same consistency like what I eat and mixed all the blended vege in it. However, if you feel your baby is not ready to eat lumpy food, you can blend it a little
happy.gif
Practice makes perfect and in no time, you will know what kind of food your child like and you won't feel lousy ever!!
I don't give my son blankets or pillows and that's because he sleeping in sleepsuits so to me it is enough to keep in warm since babies body temperature is higher than adults.

re:pillows
I don't think they really need pillows yet until they are like 12mths?
 
hi poko,

Dont worry, you are not alone. At least you only hv to deal with one bb. I hv to deal with 2. Previously, it was my girl who didnt want to drink milk. Now, it is my boy. He will only drink when he is asleep. He doesnt like cereal and porridge either. Feeding him is so difficult compared to his jie jie. Need one to feed and another to entertain him.

For porridge, i bought the rice grains for cooking porridge, cooked it over the slow cooker for about 2.5 to 3 hrs. I will usually cook the porridge with either sweet potato/pumpkin and add veg stock (carrot + sweetcorn + potato + onion) or simply throw a dry scallop in if i dont hv time to cook the stk. In the begining, i mash the porridge and the sweet potato/pumpkin thru' the sieve as my bbs cld not take coarse texture. Think you may hv to trial n error to find out what he likes best. My bbs only accepted my porridge at the 3rd attempt. Maybe ixwong can offer you some advice, i learnt from her too. Alternatively, you can refer to this thread http://www.singaporemotherhood.com/forumboard/messages/36738/320335.html?1143815398 . A lot of discussions on porridge.
 
Justen is 6mth and coming to 3weeks... I start him with HT oatmeal cereal when he is 5.5mth old. He only start to open his mouth for it when he is about 6mth old but he will reject once I add other fruit into it. I got the star shape biscuit for him from gerber, me think that is nice but I still need to put it into his mouth and he will not come back to me for more. So everytime I have to force it into his mouth although I know that is not the right way... Haii really hope that he like food just like most of the children. He will look away from me once I offer him food it really very depressing. But sad mom is easy to be satify hopefully the next feed he will open his mouth to welcome his food...

Me just complain complain as saying out make me feel better...
 


hey poko
when introducing new food to baby, sometimes he'll make a face... but that doesn't mean he doesn't like it. It's just a new taste that he's unfamiliar with. See, he's been taking milk since he was born, anything else tastes foreign to him. The caregiver must continue to smile &amp; say "Yum!" to encourage him to eat. Give the same food for 3-5 days.. let him get used to it. Then intro new food 1 at a time. It's not a natural reflex for babies to open their mouths at the sight of a spoonful of food. It's trained!

Initially when i made porridge for isaac, i ground the rice grains after washing. Then used slow cooker on High heat until the grains absorbed all the water &amp; became soft. I also added some carrot for taste. After cooking for long, the carrot will be soft &amp; can easily mash before feeding. Next few times, i added more vege, like cabbage, corn, cauliflower, brocolli etc. Subsequently i added fish slices. Now i've added pork. Planning to add white radish, chicken, egg yolk etc. Wah, i'm becoming such a chef! If only my husband would eat the same mush, then we really save time &amp; $$ liaoz. hahahaha

re: pillow
i haven't given my boy a pillow either.. but i do put a thin blanket over him.. most times he flings it off anyway..
 

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