coralmarine
Active Member
snort, does it help to stop writing?
Support Group - Stillbirths
- Thread starter miracle_bb
- Start date
coral, it really depends on the individual. i only speak for myself... i chose to keep the healing internal.
how are you now? i don't know about you but sitting in the doc's clinic for a checkup after delivery was horrible. thankfully, the nurses were considerate and put me in first so i wouldn't have to see all the pg ladies around me...
how are you now? i don't know about you but sitting in the doc's clinic for a checkup after delivery was horrible. thankfully, the nurses were considerate and put me in first so i wouldn't have to see all the pg ladies around me...
coralmarine
Active Member
Snort, I really don't know if I'm fine. I tot I was, but I realise I still get very emotional when I see bbs, or preg ladies. I get upset easily and I'm tempremental...I'm not sure if all these are side effects of the whole incident...I'm just different. I don't wish to attribute everything to my lost, but some how I suspect it's becos I'm not over it that's why I'm behaving differently. I don't kow how to talk about my feelings. I'm still searching for a way to get back to normal. I try various method, like telling myself I'm already fine, to act normal...But at times my emotions are just beyond my control. And I don't wish to talk to people about it as I really don't know what to say and i hate to hear them console me. So coming to this forum is my only outlet.
hi Coral, i'm not sure exactly when you lost your precious Kaden but obviously it's still very recent. you know... you don't have to lie to yourself that you're fine. it's ok to cry and swing from one mood to another.
write all you want if that's what works for you. no one can tell you what's best for yourself. for months after, i couldn't talk or think about it without choking up with emotion. it's NORMAL. some pp do take longer, and that's ok.
eventually, you'll find yourself calmer and perhaps even able to talk about it without turning into an emotional bag of tears. other days, you might still tear slightly. even tho it's almost a year for me, i still remember my baby beside me, the cremation, the scan... and i still cry.
i'm just saying...don't deny your feelings. you don't have to bluff yourself. you need to heal yourself. what you're feeling i too went through. i did take a short break with my hubby to repair my wounds and spend time together.
i gave myself a time frame to grieve then told myself to pick up the pieces and move on. and for that, i went back to work. and would you believe, of all places, an infant care centre! some friends thot i was trying to find a substitute but it was becos i'd already thot of doing that long ago. in a way, working with babies was cathartic. and i didn't find it emotionally depressing. i found it uplifting!
at the same time, i decided to reclaim my health (which i see you've already begun, which is good!) by starting on my TCM regimen again, signing up for yoga, did meditation/visualisation to quieten my soul and visualise a pg. i think for me, the key was when i decided to take the bull by its horn and confront my pain and hurt rather than deny it. i'll say, yes i'm hurt and angry. but i want to heal myself. i refused absolutely to ask the pointless question "WHY ME?" becos i knew there'd be no answers.
anyway, i hope my story gives some comfort to pp. oh yes, i also joined CBS (Child Bereavement Support) as a befriender becos i wanted to use my hurt and pain to help others. it may not be everyone's cup of tea but through my loss, i realise how little support we have in singapore and that spurred me on.
if you want to email me, please do so.... remember to look for the rainbow after the rain!!!
write all you want if that's what works for you. no one can tell you what's best for yourself. for months after, i couldn't talk or think about it without choking up with emotion. it's NORMAL. some pp do take longer, and that's ok.
eventually, you'll find yourself calmer and perhaps even able to talk about it without turning into an emotional bag of tears. other days, you might still tear slightly. even tho it's almost a year for me, i still remember my baby beside me, the cremation, the scan... and i still cry.
i'm just saying...don't deny your feelings. you don't have to bluff yourself. you need to heal yourself. what you're feeling i too went through. i did take a short break with my hubby to repair my wounds and spend time together.
i gave myself a time frame to grieve then told myself to pick up the pieces and move on. and for that, i went back to work. and would you believe, of all places, an infant care centre! some friends thot i was trying to find a substitute but it was becos i'd already thot of doing that long ago. in a way, working with babies was cathartic. and i didn't find it emotionally depressing. i found it uplifting!
at the same time, i decided to reclaim my health (which i see you've already begun, which is good!) by starting on my TCM regimen again, signing up for yoga, did meditation/visualisation to quieten my soul and visualise a pg. i think for me, the key was when i decided to take the bull by its horn and confront my pain and hurt rather than deny it. i'll say, yes i'm hurt and angry. but i want to heal myself. i refused absolutely to ask the pointless question "WHY ME?" becos i knew there'd be no answers.
anyway, i hope my story gives some comfort to pp. oh yes, i also joined CBS (Child Bereavement Support) as a befriender becos i wanted to use my hurt and pain to help others. it may not be everyone's cup of tea but through my loss, i realise how little support we have in singapore and that spurred me on.
if you want to email me, please do so.... remember to look for the rainbow after the rain!!!
btw, if anyone would like a shoulder to cry on, CBS (Child Bereavement Support) is having their monthly support group meetings on 13 Oct at NKF Bldg at Kim Keat Road at 7.30pm. www.childbereavementsupport.org.sg for more info.
keanekeisha
New Member
Coral
I have the exact feeling. I always wonder why everyone else seems to have an easy and smooth pregnancy? Why everyone around me seems to be pregnant?
Snort, I know it's pointless to ask "why?" but I can't help it.
Sometimes when I see happy parents with their new babies I get jealous. When I see babies that are about a year old, I would think to myself...if Keane and Keisha are around, they would be this big......
I would say I'm much better now. I can talk to pp about it without getting too emotional and tearing. I'm sure most of us are like that now.
I have the exact feeling. I always wonder why everyone else seems to have an easy and smooth pregnancy? Why everyone around me seems to be pregnant?
Snort, I know it's pointless to ask "why?" but I can't help it.
Sometimes when I see happy parents with their new babies I get jealous. When I see babies that are about a year old, I would think to myself...if Keane and Keisha are around, they would be this big......
I would say I'm much better now. I can talk to pp about it without getting too emotional and tearing. I'm sure most of us are like that now.
coralmarine
Active Member
Snort, alot of time i'd like to cry and acknowledge my pain, but it's difficult. If i do that 'll be causing my pain for my hb. As I type my tears are welling up, but I can't allow myself to cry. I'm at work. When 'm at home, my hb refuse to let me log in to such sites. he feels it'll just bring back the bad memories. He wants to bring me to see odctors but I don't think I want that. I can't really talk to my friend as I think one of my closer friend is rather insensitive when it comes to this. She gets ratehr critical and think I should just move on. My other close friend, her hb refuse to have bbs, so she get very upset, emotionally whenver we talk about bb matters, so I also didn't want to confide in her. The only way I can express my emotions is thru tears, but I have no place for that. If I cry at home, hb will keep asking me to tell him how I feel, but I dunno how to express my emotions in words, then he'll want to drag me to the doctor for I just keep crying. So now I stopped.
K&K, whenever I see preggy I get very envious and think of getting preg. but frankly, I'm still very frightened. All these time I feel so lonely. Although family and frens are always with me during that bad time, I feel none of them know how I feel. Going thru daily injections, confined in alone bed for 4months, sleep alone every night in hopsital for 2 months, alone in labour pain for 20+hours, delivering the bb on my own, seeing him yawn and turn in my tummy during scans, feeling his hard kicks during his last hours. All these time, I was alone with kaden, maybe only he knows how I feel, but he's gone now. These are feelings that a second person won't know and feel.I'm afraid to feel so much for another then to lose him again.
K&K, whenever I see preggy I get very envious and think of getting preg. but frankly, I'm still very frightened. All these time I feel so lonely. Although family and frens are always with me during that bad time, I feel none of them know how I feel. Going thru daily injections, confined in alone bed for 4months, sleep alone every night in hopsital for 2 months, alone in labour pain for 20+hours, delivering the bb on my own, seeing him yawn and turn in my tummy during scans, feeling his hard kicks during his last hours. All these time, I was alone with kaden, maybe only he knows how I feel, but he's gone now. These are feelings that a second person won't know and feel.I'm afraid to feel so much for another then to lose him again.
Hi k&k, whaatever you felt, i went thro too and it's hard, i know. why some pp have such an easy pg and get pg like nobody's business. and some pp complain about being pg AGAIN. on the other hand, there are also many who have a hard time like coral and nobody really knows. if anything, it'll make you a stronger person, believe me. you won't think it now but just wait... at the end of it, i thot to myself that whatever i'd gone thro i can use for the benefit of others in the same boat. hence CBS...
Coral, i'm sorry you had to go thro so much. i can imagine your anger, hurt and pain. you r right, no one will ever know the pain of losing a baby like the mummy except another mummy who has loved and lost. don't feel frightened to get pg again, it's natural to feel the anxiety. i felt that way too but at the same time, i made a concerted effort to keep calm and tell myself that certain things are not within my control. I will take care of myself but other things i cannot control.
i know what you mean about not wanting to let your hubby see you cry. i was like that too! he stayed home with me quite a bit for the first two weeks but i put on a brave face so he would not see me cry. sometimes i wake up and i cry. or go to sleep and i cry. he seems to be a rather supportive and caring hubby. treasure what you have in him. tell him you just need to cry becos it's a form of release for you. if you bottle it up, you might take longer to heal.
Seeing how difficult it is for you to confide in others, I would really strongly encourage you to talk with other women in similar situations at the CBS monthly meeting, if that's your only other outlet.
Coral, i'm sorry you had to go thro so much. i can imagine your anger, hurt and pain. you r right, no one will ever know the pain of losing a baby like the mummy except another mummy who has loved and lost. don't feel frightened to get pg again, it's natural to feel the anxiety. i felt that way too but at the same time, i made a concerted effort to keep calm and tell myself that certain things are not within my control. I will take care of myself but other things i cannot control.
i know what you mean about not wanting to let your hubby see you cry. i was like that too! he stayed home with me quite a bit for the first two weeks but i put on a brave face so he would not see me cry. sometimes i wake up and i cry. or go to sleep and i cry. he seems to be a rather supportive and caring hubby. treasure what you have in him. tell him you just need to cry becos it's a form of release for you. if you bottle it up, you might take longer to heal.
Seeing how difficult it is for you to confide in others, I would really strongly encourage you to talk with other women in similar situations at the CBS monthly meeting, if that's your only other outlet.
coralmarine
Active Member
Thanks Snort. I'm still trying to sort out my internal feelings...But guess when ti come to a matter like emotion, there's no easy route. Hopefully, time or other distraction will help.
bellybutton
Member
hi girls
have been sometime since i last came in and put to writing my feelings. after seeing your postings, so much thots and feelings just well up within me again..
you know, 3rd of Oct was the supposed edd for Ariel. My hubby and I got pretty emotional that week.. It was made worse by the fact that my sister-in-law gave birth one month earlier and celebrated her bb's full moon during the same week. It was so difficult, when me and my SIl discovered that we were pregnant at almost the same time, there were so much to talk about, and then when i lost the baby, i found it so hard to face her. And now, i had to face her new-born. it was like, my baby could have been sleeping next to hers too!!! I know my hubby is going through the same too, but it is so difficult to avoid seeing her baby coz we're so closely related. it's like God is playing some joke on us honestly! already we're trying to forget about the unhappy past and move on, but kept from doing so as we are constantly being reminded of our pain by someone rubbing salt on our wound...
and on days when i call my mother to chat with her, i'll hear my sil's baby making sounds in the background, and my mom telling me that he's very cute and constantly needs her attention so she can't chat for long. I dun suppose my mother understands the pain that i'm really feeling, neither do any of my friends or relatives around me coz they've not been through the same. I can only seek solace in my hubby (which i try not to coz i'm afraid i may remind him of his pains too) or this forum, which i'm really grateful for, otherwise i think this healing process would be a long and lonely one
so sorry for the ranting. dunno if writing and crying really helps in the healing process. It makes me sadder yet i feel relieved that there's an outlet for me to let go of these feelings that have been pent-up for so long.
thanks girls, for listening. maybe i'll really sink into severe depression if not for you!
have been sometime since i last came in and put to writing my feelings. after seeing your postings, so much thots and feelings just well up within me again..
you know, 3rd of Oct was the supposed edd for Ariel. My hubby and I got pretty emotional that week.. It was made worse by the fact that my sister-in-law gave birth one month earlier and celebrated her bb's full moon during the same week. It was so difficult, when me and my SIl discovered that we were pregnant at almost the same time, there were so much to talk about, and then when i lost the baby, i found it so hard to face her. And now, i had to face her new-born. it was like, my baby could have been sleeping next to hers too!!! I know my hubby is going through the same too, but it is so difficult to avoid seeing her baby coz we're so closely related. it's like God is playing some joke on us honestly! already we're trying to forget about the unhappy past and move on, but kept from doing so as we are constantly being reminded of our pain by someone rubbing salt on our wound...
and on days when i call my mother to chat with her, i'll hear my sil's baby making sounds in the background, and my mom telling me that he's very cute and constantly needs her attention so she can't chat for long. I dun suppose my mother understands the pain that i'm really feeling, neither do any of my friends or relatives around me coz they've not been through the same. I can only seek solace in my hubby (which i try not to coz i'm afraid i may remind him of his pains too) or this forum, which i'm really grateful for, otherwise i think this healing process would be a long and lonely one
so sorry for the ranting. dunno if writing and crying really helps in the healing process. It makes me sadder yet i feel relieved that there's an outlet for me to let go of these feelings that have been pent-up for so long.
thanks girls, for listening. maybe i'll really sink into severe depression if not for you!
bellybutton
Member
and coral, i have the exact same feeling as you when it comes to ttc again.
my 3 menstrual cycles have past and that means i can officially try and conceive again. it was some kind of mutual understanding between me and my hubby that we'll try again for a child. but deep down inside me, I am honestly scared. scared that history may repeat itself, and if it is really so, I dunno if both my hubby and I would have the strength, both spiritually and mentally, to face failure again. and it's not just having to deal with ourselves, i hate to face our relatives, colleagues, put up a brave front, or have all the well-meaning people coming to you and console you with the cliche "you're young and can try again" when all you wish is for them to shut up and leave you alone.
sometimes, i wish hubby and i can go somewhere where no one know us and we can ttc there. so even if we fail again, no one else would know. there you dun have to face people and have your situation becoming their lunch topic. but this is just my wishful thinking, quite impossible.
my 3 menstrual cycles have past and that means i can officially try and conceive again. it was some kind of mutual understanding between me and my hubby that we'll try again for a child. but deep down inside me, I am honestly scared. scared that history may repeat itself, and if it is really so, I dunno if both my hubby and I would have the strength, both spiritually and mentally, to face failure again. and it's not just having to deal with ourselves, i hate to face our relatives, colleagues, put up a brave front, or have all the well-meaning people coming to you and console you with the cliche "you're young and can try again" when all you wish is for them to shut up and leave you alone.
sometimes, i wish hubby and i can go somewhere where no one know us and we can ttc there. so even if we fail again, no one else would know. there you dun have to face people and have your situation becoming their lunch topic. but this is just my wishful thinking, quite impossible.
bellybutton
Member
and guess what? i have another sil (hubby's side) who is now 5 months pregnant. There is no way i can get out of having to face pregnant ladies and new-borns. it's like getting "slapped" left right centre!
dear bellybutton, hi. i know what you mean when you said writing and crying makes you sadder and yet it's a release. i was telling Coral that for about a month, i wrote and cried. then i stopped becos i felt that everytime i wrote, i cried and the pain kept coming back.
i'm sorry i don't exactly know what happened with Ariel (i love this name), but in a strange way, i found solace in the fact that the autopsy didn't reveal anything wrong with my angel baby. so to me, it was just one of those things that happen... and a gynae friend who practises in the UK said that in cases like mine, 75% go on to have healthy subsequent pregnancies. So i simply clung on to that hope instead of dwelling on the what ifs.
it's doubly hard to face family who have newborns... becos alot of what ifs and if onlys play on your mind. as part of my healing, i actually went back to work, in an infant care centre where i looked after four 2 to 6 mo-old babies! it didn't make me sad but it did make me want to try for another, with great hope!
but it really does help to keep a positive mind to any possibilities that life opens up to us, including the opportunity to conceive again! i found myself pg again 4 mos after my loss, a miracle for me becos if you didn't know, i had to go the IVF route the first time. i had the same fears about what if... and when i reached the 22w mark (when my angel baby died), i had to consciously keep a positive attitude so as not to affect my emotional and mental state.
i think for us all, fear is the biggest thing to conquer. fear of the unknown... becos frankly, life is one great big unknown, isn't it? and yet we carry on... so, try and look at it this way and you'll find that you have immense strength from within you! SMILE!!!
i'm sorry i don't exactly know what happened with Ariel (i love this name), but in a strange way, i found solace in the fact that the autopsy didn't reveal anything wrong with my angel baby. so to me, it was just one of those things that happen... and a gynae friend who practises in the UK said that in cases like mine, 75% go on to have healthy subsequent pregnancies. So i simply clung on to that hope instead of dwelling on the what ifs.
it's doubly hard to face family who have newborns... becos alot of what ifs and if onlys play on your mind. as part of my healing, i actually went back to work, in an infant care centre where i looked after four 2 to 6 mo-old babies! it didn't make me sad but it did make me want to try for another, with great hope!
but it really does help to keep a positive mind to any possibilities that life opens up to us, including the opportunity to conceive again! i found myself pg again 4 mos after my loss, a miracle for me becos if you didn't know, i had to go the IVF route the first time. i had the same fears about what if... and when i reached the 22w mark (when my angel baby died), i had to consciously keep a positive attitude so as not to affect my emotional and mental state.
i think for us all, fear is the biggest thing to conquer. fear of the unknown... becos frankly, life is one great big unknown, isn't it? and yet we carry on... so, try and look at it this way and you'll find that you have immense strength from within you! SMILE!!!
keanekeisha
New Member
Bellybutton, same here, SIL is pregnant again...should be abt 5mth now and she didn't want the baby initially.
Here we are all trying so hard and those who have it don't treasure.
Here we are all trying so hard and those who have it don't treasure.
bellybutton
Member
K&K,
i know, it really doesn't feel good to know that life is sometimes so unfair. especially when it comes to child-bearing, where people around you get pregnant and give birth so easily, just like laying eggs. sigh, what to do? life is indeed unfair. i've accept the fact long ago. but i take heart in knowing that at least i have a hubby who loves me and stands by me. I know in many ways i am more fortunate than many, and i constantly remind myself to treasure that
and i know that when we finally become mothers one day, we will treasure our children more since they dun come easy
hi snort,
i had to terminate my pregnancy at 24th week, at the advice of my gynae coz Ariel was not growing well. It was a very difficult and painful decision, and I chose not to do a post-mortem, for fear that if there is really nothing wrong, then I will be a mum that murders her own child.
i must say that you are such an inspiration to me, really! for facing the problem instead of escaping. i believe it is by truly facing the problem will you conquer and overcome it and attain true healing. for me, i just try and escape, by not thinking about it and if possible, i'd even want to avoid seeing newborns and preggies.. I will aspire to be as brave as you!
i know, it really doesn't feel good to know that life is sometimes so unfair. especially when it comes to child-bearing, where people around you get pregnant and give birth so easily, just like laying eggs. sigh, what to do? life is indeed unfair. i've accept the fact long ago. but i take heart in knowing that at least i have a hubby who loves me and stands by me. I know in many ways i am more fortunate than many, and i constantly remind myself to treasure that
and i know that when we finally become mothers one day, we will treasure our children more since they dun come easy
hi snort,
i had to terminate my pregnancy at 24th week, at the advice of my gynae coz Ariel was not growing well. It was a very difficult and painful decision, and I chose not to do a post-mortem, for fear that if there is really nothing wrong, then I will be a mum that murders her own child.
i must say that you are such an inspiration to me, really! for facing the problem instead of escaping. i believe it is by truly facing the problem will you conquer and overcome it and attain true healing. for me, i just try and escape, by not thinking about it and if possible, i'd even want to avoid seeing newborns and preggies.. I will aspire to be as brave as you!
bellybutton, it must have been terribly terribly heartbreaking to have to make such a drastic decision. i feel sad for you... it is a route that nobody should ever have to take and i want to encourage you to let it go slowly. or it will haunt you for the rest of your life. you did what you thot was best for Ariel and no one, NO ONE, can ever say otherwise.
also know that oftentimes, one case is not indicative of subseqent pregnancies being similar, so don't harbour unnecessary fear. I believe your mind affects your body in ways even doctors cannot explain. try visualisation/meditation (deep breathing) to heal your body/womb/mind.
visualise yourself in a beautiful place (beach, meadow, mountain, anywhere you feel most connected with) and letting the sunshine bathe you and cover you with light. feel the warmth of the sun on you. imagine the sun's rays going into your body/womb and healing it, making it whole. do this daily. it helped me conceive...
also know that oftentimes, one case is not indicative of subseqent pregnancies being similar, so don't harbour unnecessary fear. I believe your mind affects your body in ways even doctors cannot explain. try visualisation/meditation (deep breathing) to heal your body/womb/mind.
visualise yourself in a beautiful place (beach, meadow, mountain, anywhere you feel most connected with) and letting the sunshine bathe you and cover you with light. feel the warmth of the sun on you. imagine the sun's rays going into your body/womb and healing it, making it whole. do this daily. it helped me conceive...
coralmarine
Active Member
Dear bellybutton, I feel the same, wish I could ttc somewhere where nobody knows me. I think I'll keep quite during my next preg i=until my tummy show.
Last weekend I broke down when reading about c-section on newspaper. I'm just reminded of the long hours of labour pain, the anxiety during scan, his kicks and all. I'm so faraid to face the same trauma again.
it's also mutual understanding btw hb and I that we'll try again after my third cycle next month, but now he thinks we might have to wait till I'm more ready. On the surface I look fine, but a few times he caught me hiding and sobbing uncontrollably...
Wish we can be stronger.
Last weekend I broke down when reading about c-section on newspaper. I'm just reminded of the long hours of labour pain, the anxiety during scan, his kicks and all. I'm so faraid to face the same trauma again.
it's also mutual understanding btw hb and I that we'll try again after my third cycle next month, but now he thinks we might have to wait till I'm more ready. On the surface I look fine, but a few times he caught me hiding and sobbing uncontrollably...
Wish we can be stronger.
bellybutton
Member
hi coral!
me too! i'll keep quiet too if i'm pregnant again. in fact, i'm even thinking of hiding from my parents-in-law. coz MIL announced to the whole world even before my 3 month was up. i didn't think much of it initially, until i had to terminate my pregnancy and she had to explain to everyone what happened...
healing takes time, especially after such a traumatic experience!.. do you think getting pregnant again will aid us in our healing coz we will finally be a mom that we never could be? dunno, just wondering..
me too! i'll keep quiet too if i'm pregnant again. in fact, i'm even thinking of hiding from my parents-in-law. coz MIL announced to the whole world even before my 3 month was up. i didn't think much of it initially, until i had to terminate my pregnancy and she had to explain to everyone what happened...
healing takes time, especially after such a traumatic experience!.. do you think getting pregnant again will aid us in our healing coz we will finally be a mom that we never could be? dunno, just wondering..
coralmarine
Active Member
I guess if we ever have a bb of our own it'll help in some way. But I guess the scar is always there, we'll miss that child we lost forever. He/she is very much a part of us. I'm confused, want to try yet very very frightened. Know have to be strong, but the fear just come. Guess I'll not focus on chasing it away, but focus on the future. Just can't keep looking back else won't be able to have a future. Let's jia you together.
happysunflower
New Member
Hi coral, bellybutton...
Hugs hugs... I wish you will recover soon mentally
I do agree with Snort about the part of stopping to write during the healing. I was in deep deep depression after my first m/c. It affected my life. I went for counselling too. All I do is to visit the forums and write and do nothing else. That time, my depression got deeper. Then I decided to stop watching the TV, reading the newspapers, and cut down on visiting the forums, cos I can keep crying and crying which did not help my healing... I slowly got better. I did put in a lot of efforts to help myself to get better. I went for motivation courses too. And I started to visit the forums again when I am well again
"bu she de" to leave friends who cared before
I even went for a friend's baby's full month party. If my baby did survive, it will be his full month too. I overcame that fear and faced the reality
. It did help in my recovery
.
I used to feel sad when I see babies and preggies. I learnt that I had to conquer that too. Then I started to try to feel happy and think happy for them... And I got used to the feeling of happiness
It was not easy at the beginning... but I managed to overcome
Now, I have a lucky star... Whenever I see my cousin's baby, I will have good news coming along
. He was born during my confinement in my first m/c. Yesterday I just played with him... It's such a joy. It's so "wen xing" to see my hubby also can play with him... So cute and happy and fun to play with...
I believe in depression and stress can really hinder being able to conceive again. Cos I been through it
.
Jia you!
Hi Snort,
Congratulations!
Hugs hugs... I wish you will recover soon mentally
I do agree with Snort about the part of stopping to write during the healing. I was in deep deep depression after my first m/c. It affected my life. I went for counselling too. All I do is to visit the forums and write and do nothing else. That time, my depression got deeper. Then I decided to stop watching the TV, reading the newspapers, and cut down on visiting the forums, cos I can keep crying and crying which did not help my healing... I slowly got better. I did put in a lot of efforts to help myself to get better. I went for motivation courses too. And I started to visit the forums again when I am well again
I even went for a friend's baby's full month party. If my baby did survive, it will be his full month too. I overcame that fear and faced the reality
I used to feel sad when I see babies and preggies. I learnt that I had to conquer that too. Then I started to try to feel happy and think happy for them... And I got used to the feeling of happiness
Now, I have a lucky star... Whenever I see my cousin's baby, I will have good news coming along
I believe in depression and stress can really hinder being able to conceive again. Cos I been through it
Jia you!
Hi Snort,
Congratulations!
droopy_eyes
New Member
Dear Ladies,
I have to agree with Snort too abt the stopping to write part. I lost my boy at Wk 21 and yes I was shocked and very depressed. There were times after the confinement period when I feel very very tedious just staying alive. I was so engrossed with TTC and like some of you, I surfed the net for forums on this.
By the 3rd month, I am tired of being depressed, my sister-in-law and two of my very good friends are pregnant. I decided to refocus and direct my attention to other stuff. I heed my hubby's advice and like Lyn, cut down on my visits to the forum.
I discover I am pregnant shortly after. No I have not forgotten about my boy, I still talk to him n ask him to protect his little sister inside me now. The fear is always there every single day, but some things are really beyond me. All I can do is keep myself positive, strong n healthy, the rest I can only leave it to God.
Dun underestimate the inner power inside us and yes, let's jia you to overcome the fear in us!
I have to agree with Snort too abt the stopping to write part. I lost my boy at Wk 21 and yes I was shocked and very depressed. There were times after the confinement period when I feel very very tedious just staying alive. I was so engrossed with TTC and like some of you, I surfed the net for forums on this.
By the 3rd month, I am tired of being depressed, my sister-in-law and two of my very good friends are pregnant. I decided to refocus and direct my attention to other stuff. I heed my hubby's advice and like Lyn, cut down on my visits to the forum.
I discover I am pregnant shortly after. No I have not forgotten about my boy, I still talk to him n ask him to protect his little sister inside me now. The fear is always there every single day, but some things are really beyond me. All I can do is keep myself positive, strong n healthy, the rest I can only leave it to God.
Dun underestimate the inner power inside us and yes, let's jia you to overcome the fear in us!
Dear lyn, thanks for the well-wishes. i can tell you're going to be just all right. look at the number of smileys in your message. may you be blessed with another baby..
dear droopy eyes, congrats too!! i was shocked too when i lost my bb at 22w. i couldn't believe i was the so-called 1% who m/c after first tri. then i realised that there were many out there who were suffering too. the fear is very real but as with most things, mind over matter. i had to axe that fear daily or i'd have gone mad, esp when it came close to the time we lost our baby.
now i practise relaxation and visualisation daily. visualise my baby being born. lyn, try visualising a baby being formed and born...
and yes, there is only so much we can do... the rest is really up to God.
so coral and bellybutton, if you need to leave the forum for a while and then come back later when you feel better, do it for your own sanity! there'll be a big family waiting for you here.
dear droopy eyes, congrats too!! i was shocked too when i lost my bb at 22w. i couldn't believe i was the so-called 1% who m/c after first tri. then i realised that there were many out there who were suffering too. the fear is very real but as with most things, mind over matter. i had to axe that fear daily or i'd have gone mad, esp when it came close to the time we lost our baby.
now i practise relaxation and visualisation daily. visualise my baby being born. lyn, try visualising a baby being formed and born...
and yes, there is only so much we can do... the rest is really up to God.
so coral and bellybutton, if you need to leave the forum for a while and then come back later when you feel better, do it for your own sanity! there'll be a big family waiting for you here.
happysunflower
New Member
Hi Snort,
Thank you for your blessing
I have learnt visualisation a few months ago, and started visualising living happily with 4 kids of my own
Each grandparent take care of one...
Yes, visualising the happy moments and the future we want will motivate us and make us happier
. It does helps
.
Coral, bellybutton,
I think to recover faster, it's better to read happy things. If you find the forums too sad, better to avoid till you are better mentally.
Jia you!
Thank you for your blessing
I have learnt visualisation a few months ago, and started visualising living happily with 4 kids of my own
Yes, visualising the happy moments and the future we want will motivate us and make us happier
Coral, bellybutton,
I think to recover faster, it's better to read happy things. If you find the forums too sad, better to avoid till you are better mentally.
Jia you!
coralmarine
Active Member
Thanks Lyn and Snort.The forum had been a great support and strength during the time I discovered that we may have to lose Kaden till the time I lost him and then during my confinement...I'm very grateful to all the ladies here for their encouragement and also being such an inspiration.
But I guess, at times reading the sad stories here is just too much for me now. It'll prob take a while longer before I can face such matters as bravely as you gals. Maybe this busy peiod is a good time for me to take a break and strengthen my mental health.
But I guess, at times reading the sad stories here is just too much for me now. It'll prob take a while longer before I can face such matters as bravely as you gals. Maybe this busy peiod is a good time for me to take a break and strengthen my mental health.
yes, coral. keeping busy does help but remember... when you are not busy, it'll all come flooding back. so, ultimately, you'll still have to exercise control over your mind. take a holiday together. my hb and i went to vietnam whilst i tried to piece together my life. when i came back, i resolved to face everyone and made looking for a job my mission.
whilst the forum has been your strength and yet to some extent, your sorrow, you'll have to decide to pick up the pieces and plod on. life doesn't end here. maybe talk to a counsellor or join a real-life support group.
i really wish for you to get well and enjoy life again. there's a rainbow there for you....
whilst the forum has been your strength and yet to some extent, your sorrow, you'll have to decide to pick up the pieces and plod on. life doesn't end here. maybe talk to a counsellor or join a real-life support group.
i really wish for you to get well and enjoy life again. there's a rainbow there for you....
coralmarine
Active Member
Thanks Snort. I do understand that life doesn't end here, so is our memory of Kaden. It lives on. I looked at his pic just not, my heart aches, but i sort of feel more at peace. I told him, Mummy will want to hv a bb again, mayb it's you coming back to us or mayb it's you're happy somewhere else n send us another angel to keep us company. I think at this moment, I just have to remind myself to take control of my emotions that let my mind wonder off to that scary territory.
Will be going for a trip with hb fm tmrw, then a few other short trips. I'm not dwelling in the past, but can't deny thoughts of it haunts me and scares me.
Will be going for a trip with hb fm tmrw, then a few other short trips. I'm not dwelling in the past, but can't deny thoughts of it haunts me and scares me.
droopy_eyes
New Member
Thanks Snort, yeah same here...it was only when I came to this forum that I realised I am not alone. I also learned to focus on things I now have instead of the things I have lost.
Coral, do enjoy your trip! Focus on enjoying!
Coral, do enjoy your trip! Focus on enjoying!
bellybutton
Member
hi girls!
thanks for all your encouragement. I will definitely jia you and try not to look back at my unhappy past.
while playing with my 2 month nephew today, a maternal instinct welled up in me so strongly that i made up my mind on the spot that i shall try again for another baby. no more looking back and dwelling on the past. I'm going to look ahead and focus on the future, from now on. Hurray! coral, do join me!
thanks for all your encouragement. I will definitely jia you and try not to look back at my unhappy past.
while playing with my 2 month nephew today, a maternal instinct welled up in me so strongly that i made up my mind on the spot that i shall try again for another baby. no more looking back and dwelling on the past. I'm going to look ahead and focus on the future, from now on. Hurray! coral, do join me!
happysunflower
New Member
Hello gals!
Remember:
The past does not equal the future!
That's what I am reminding myself lately when I fall into negative thoughts and fears...
Remember:
The past does not equal the future!
That's what I am reminding myself lately when I fall into negative thoughts and fears...
coralmarine
Active Member
Bellybutton, I'll try for a bb soon. Prob in amonth or two. When both of our schedule not so tight. Now we're travelling so much, I think not a good time to try. Prob when the new year come, with new hope and all we shall try for a new life a new beginning. Jia you!
Coral, bellybutton, droopyeyes, lyn... my heart lifted when i read all the posts today and know that all of you will be just fine and smiling in your hearts soon! sure, the past will keep coming back, but trust me, it will hurt less and less, if you let your heart remain open and happy!
coral, enjoy your trips... focus on healing your heart and mind.
coral, enjoy your trips... focus on healing your heart and mind.
coralmarine
Active Member
Thanks snort. I'm getting there...slowly but surely.
happysunflower
New Member
Hi bitbit,
I like your flower... It's very nice
It's so sweet of you to bring sunshine here
Hi snort,
Yes, the past will still be there. It will never be forgotten. The pain will subside and heal as time goes by
Do happy things, have happy thoughts and memories
I used to build a travel website about my travels. Whenever I feel down, I will go to my website and remind me of my happy travels with hubby
Try to have some happy things around to remind you of the happiness
Take care!
I like your flower... It's very nice
Hi snort,
Yes, the past will still be there. It will never be forgotten. The pain will subside and heal as time goes by
Do happy things, have happy thoughts and memories
Take care!
Hi all,
I've been reading the postings in this thread and it sure brings back memories. My hubby and I lost our 1st baby at 30 weeks back in August. Our baby Joshua was diagnosed with major defects in the head, heart and intestines at about 20 weeks. We were hoping he had Down's Syndrome as that meant he had a chance of survival but at 22 weeks, Docs confirmed Joshua had Trisomy 18 (Edward's Syndrome) and will not survive. Still, we were hoping that he would somehow survive. Up till today, my hubby and I still feel the pain of losing Joshua and we miss him very much.
It's never easy to go through such experiences... especially when we have to prepare for Joshua's birth and funeral at the same time. Yes we still cry today but the experience has taught us how much we really love children and treasure them. We learnt the true meaning of love from this experience.
Reyesmommy and 2inHeaven, my hubby and I are Catholics too. We like to share with you that we were never angry with God because this experience brought us closer to Him. When God bless us with a special child, He will bless us with the gifts to go through this difficult time if you allow him to. When we pray every night, we will ask our little Joshua to pray for us to. Talking to our little saint in heaven heals our pain and that reminds us everyday that we have to do good so that one day, we can see baby Joshua again.
Reyesmommy, I hope you don't lose faith in God because our little baby saints are all in Heaven with Him and I'm sure they do not want to see their mommies and daddies sad, rite? One day, our babies will get to tell us "Daddy & Mommy, thank you for loving me."
I've been reading the postings in this thread and it sure brings back memories. My hubby and I lost our 1st baby at 30 weeks back in August. Our baby Joshua was diagnosed with major defects in the head, heart and intestines at about 20 weeks. We were hoping he had Down's Syndrome as that meant he had a chance of survival but at 22 weeks, Docs confirmed Joshua had Trisomy 18 (Edward's Syndrome) and will not survive. Still, we were hoping that he would somehow survive. Up till today, my hubby and I still feel the pain of losing Joshua and we miss him very much.
It's never easy to go through such experiences... especially when we have to prepare for Joshua's birth and funeral at the same time. Yes we still cry today but the experience has taught us how much we really love children and treasure them. We learnt the true meaning of love from this experience.
Reyesmommy and 2inHeaven, my hubby and I are Catholics too. We like to share with you that we were never angry with God because this experience brought us closer to Him. When God bless us with a special child, He will bless us with the gifts to go through this difficult time if you allow him to. When we pray every night, we will ask our little Joshua to pray for us to. Talking to our little saint in heaven heals our pain and that reminds us everyday that we have to do good so that one day, we can see baby Joshua again.
Reyesmommy, I hope you don't lose faith in God because our little baby saints are all in Heaven with Him and I'm sure they do not want to see their mommies and daddies sad, rite? One day, our babies will get to tell us "Daddy & Mommy, thank you for loving me."
jo, please please don't think about something bad happening. sometimes what we imagine might come true. like me, my greatest fear in my first pg was that i might miscarry late and true enough, the fear played itself out at 22w.
i would strongly strongly encourage you to tune your mind to positive thots instead and send love messages to your baby instead. please.... don't do anything to jeopardise your pg. you don't realise how powerful our little mind is in affecting our physical selves.
from a parent who loved and lost...
i would strongly strongly encourage you to tune your mind to positive thots instead and send love messages to your baby instead. please.... don't do anything to jeopardise your pg. you don't realise how powerful our little mind is in affecting our physical selves.
from a parent who loved and lost...
thanks snort, at times i just cant help it but wonder wat causes still birth and all. very much afraid to lose my bbs when my hubby wanted me to abort them. as we are both not financially sound. but i prove him wrong. i insist on giving birth to my first n i made it. my first is currently 10mths old n a very lovely boy. with my 2nd boy coming, i treasure as much, thou again, my hubby wanted me to abort in the first place. i fight my way thru again to make it work.
wld admit i m not someone who like kids in the past.. till i had my own. he bring me lots of joy. unlike my hubby, he cant tahan kids making noise.. s his niece n nephews are real noisy n irritating fellows. that resulted in him dislike having kids ard.
i m still trying to change his concept towards our own kids.. n trying very hard everyday. tts why left my boy with my parents whom i trust to give him proper upbringing. as my hubby's niece n nephews didnt hv good upbringing, wont greet ppl as they were told. my sils oso bo chap. they will just allow the kids to scream n yell together.. which i hate. oso told my hubby that i m sorri, but dun wish our kids to grow up like that. as such, wont want our boy to mix ard with them too much.
wld admit i m not someone who like kids in the past.. till i had my own. he bring me lots of joy. unlike my hubby, he cant tahan kids making noise.. s his niece n nephews are real noisy n irritating fellows. that resulted in him dislike having kids ard.
i m still trying to change his concept towards our own kids.. n trying very hard everyday. tts why left my boy with my parents whom i trust to give him proper upbringing. as my hubby's niece n nephews didnt hv good upbringing, wont greet ppl as they were told. my sils oso bo chap. they will just allow the kids to scream n yell together.. which i hate. oso told my hubby that i m sorri, but dun wish our kids to grow up like that. as such, wont want our boy to mix ard with them too much.
even if my hubby dun ustd my doings n feel that i m selfish. there is nothing i can do. all i can tell him is i hv my own method to upbring my kids. since he never contribute any $$ n time to our kids.. so shut up!
he see for himself so clearly comparing my bro's 4yr old son to his sis's 5yr old son. how each of them react to the seniors. his sis's son wont greet anyone, simply walk away.. very selfish in sharing his toys to my boy. on the other hand, my bro's son will greet everyone in their proper chinese terms.. like "yeye, nainai, er shu, da gu, er gu, er gu zhang" those he dun see often, we will teach him how to greet n he will greet everyone as told. further to that, for ladies, he will hug n give them a peck on the cheek.. for guys, he will shake hand with them.. so loving.. he has lots of toys at my mum's place.. i was surprised he went up to my boy to ask for permission to play with those toys instead.. saying that my boy is younger, so the toys belong to my boy now..
my nephew realli make everyone of us love him so much. thou not brought up by my mum but he shows good respect to all even to a 10mths old bb. my nephew was very happy oso to know that i m preg with another bb.. at least he got one more cousin to play with him in time to come.
he see for himself so clearly comparing my bro's 4yr old son to his sis's 5yr old son. how each of them react to the seniors. his sis's son wont greet anyone, simply walk away.. very selfish in sharing his toys to my boy. on the other hand, my bro's son will greet everyone in their proper chinese terms.. like "yeye, nainai, er shu, da gu, er gu, er gu zhang" those he dun see often, we will teach him how to greet n he will greet everyone as told. further to that, for ladies, he will hug n give them a peck on the cheek.. for guys, he will shake hand with them.. so loving.. he has lots of toys at my mum's place.. i was surprised he went up to my boy to ask for permission to play with those toys instead.. saying that my boy is younger, so the toys belong to my boy now..
my nephew realli make everyone of us love him so much. thou not brought up by my mum but he shows good respect to all even to a 10mths old bb. my nephew was very happy oso to know that i m preg with another bb.. at least he got one more cousin to play with him in time to come.
wow, jo. your bro's son is like an angel. i would like my baby to grow up like that too. so who looks after him?
i understand why your hb doesn't like kids if that's how his side of the family brings up their kids. after all, how our parents brought us up is generally how we end up bringing up our kids unless we make the effort to correct the not-so-good aspects, right?
isn't your hb good with your son now? or doesn't play with him? take heart, hopefully things will improve. can't be easy for you... i hope you have someone to talk to about things like these but make sure it's not someone who'll poison you with bad thots about hb, etc.
do remain positive, no matter how difficult. like me, this week i was also very upset with my hb becos even tho the doc advised me to rest more, i still had to buy all my bb stuff and run around on my own. i felt like a single parent.
anyway, take heart. remember to think good vibes about baby. you'll be fine.
i understand why your hb doesn't like kids if that's how his side of the family brings up their kids. after all, how our parents brought us up is generally how we end up bringing up our kids unless we make the effort to correct the not-so-good aspects, right?
isn't your hb good with your son now? or doesn't play with him? take heart, hopefully things will improve. can't be easy for you... i hope you have someone to talk to about things like these but make sure it's not someone who'll poison you with bad thots about hb, etc.
do remain positive, no matter how difficult. like me, this week i was also very upset with my hb becos even tho the doc advised me to rest more, i still had to buy all my bb stuff and run around on my own. i felt like a single parent.
anyway, take heart. remember to think good vibes about baby. you'll be fine.
snort.. yup, my nephew is realli like an angel. i myself find him too good to b true. he has been brought up by my bro's mil since a bb. i do wish my kids to grow up like him as well.
i agree with u on the correcting the not-so-gd aspects.. but i notice my hubby is still teaching my boy the same way he was being brought up. tts y refuse my kids to mix ard with the external cousins.
my son has been in the care of my own mum since a bb. for the first 3 mths, he still comes back on weekends.. but all thanks to my crazy mil.. with all those bangin n slamming.. scared off my bb waking up crying from sleep.. i hv to bring him back to my parents.. end up all day long he is at my parents place.
my hubby on the other hand hardly sees bb at my parents place. min once a mth.. max of 5.. my boy oways want him to carry when we go over. yet he cries when seeing my hubby.
i see that my hubby is realli a lousy father.. duno how to play with the son.. talk to the son. think ask my hubby.. how many teeth ur son has now.. he wont b able to answer too.. he simply knows nuts abt his son's development.
his acts towards me n bbs are very surface onli. when he want to show off.. he rem his son. if not, he cant even b bothered abt his son.
divorce comes into my mind many times.. as all he knows is to say "feng liang hua" to me.. ask him to do something for bb n i.. everything got to wait n wait..
i was so pissed when i told him say i tot of bringing back earli this week.. try to see if he can stay over here again.. so that my parents can hv good rest. but the next day i got interviews to attend. my hubby says that he can cover me when i not ard.. but when i asked him if bb start crying.. do u know wat to do? he can answer me.. duno.. just let him cry lo.. even if the veins on the forehead surface oso no choice.. it hurts me so much to hear him say that.. he truly fail as a father.. i then ask him.. is that how ur mum take care of u n ur sisters when u were all young? he went silent...
i seriously find that he dun even bother to take effort to ask wat to do when our boy cries.. wat are the possibilities.. wat to check .. wat to look out for..
he realli disappoint me terribly..
i agree with u on the correcting the not-so-gd aspects.. but i notice my hubby is still teaching my boy the same way he was being brought up. tts y refuse my kids to mix ard with the external cousins.
my son has been in the care of my own mum since a bb. for the first 3 mths, he still comes back on weekends.. but all thanks to my crazy mil.. with all those bangin n slamming.. scared off my bb waking up crying from sleep.. i hv to bring him back to my parents.. end up all day long he is at my parents place.
my hubby on the other hand hardly sees bb at my parents place. min once a mth.. max of 5.. my boy oways want him to carry when we go over. yet he cries when seeing my hubby.
i see that my hubby is realli a lousy father.. duno how to play with the son.. talk to the son. think ask my hubby.. how many teeth ur son has now.. he wont b able to answer too.. he simply knows nuts abt his son's development.
his acts towards me n bbs are very surface onli. when he want to show off.. he rem his son. if not, he cant even b bothered abt his son.
divorce comes into my mind many times.. as all he knows is to say "feng liang hua" to me.. ask him to do something for bb n i.. everything got to wait n wait..
i was so pissed when i told him say i tot of bringing back earli this week.. try to see if he can stay over here again.. so that my parents can hv good rest. but the next day i got interviews to attend. my hubby says that he can cover me when i not ard.. but when i asked him if bb start crying.. do u know wat to do? he can answer me.. duno.. just let him cry lo.. even if the veins on the forehead surface oso no choice.. it hurts me so much to hear him say that.. he truly fail as a father.. i then ask him.. is that how ur mum take care of u n ur sisters when u were all young? he went silent...
i seriously find that he dun even bother to take effort to ask wat to do when our boy cries.. wat are the possibilities.. wat to check .. wat to look out for..
he realli disappoint me terribly..
R
reyesmommy
Guest
Hi, haven't been checking this thread for a while cos been super busy.
Joan, just saw yr message. I havent' lost faith in God, i still believe in him but just wonder what in the world is He thinking sometimes when things like that happen. People keep telling me to listen and keep the faith but I think He's speaking too softly for me to hear, maybe i need to go for some ear candling session : )
I've been trying for another child for a while now but for some reason, it's so much more difficult this time around. Still nothing happening. I've reached this stage where i'm thinking, maybe this is God's will for me, i'm not meant to have another child so why keep on trying and trying and getting emotionally and mentally disappointed and exhausted. So I'm like telling myself that 'Harlow..it's just not meant to be. Geddit!!
Hope everybody else is fine!
Joan, just saw yr message. I havent' lost faith in God, i still believe in him but just wonder what in the world is He thinking sometimes when things like that happen. People keep telling me to listen and keep the faith but I think He's speaking too softly for me to hear, maybe i need to go for some ear candling session : )
I've been trying for another child for a while now but for some reason, it's so much more difficult this time around. Still nothing happening. I've reached this stage where i'm thinking, maybe this is God's will for me, i'm not meant to have another child so why keep on trying and trying and getting emotionally and mentally disappointed and exhausted. So I'm like telling myself that 'Harlow..it's just not meant to be. Geddit!!
Hope everybody else is fine!
coralmarine
Active Member
Hi reyesmommy, sorry to hear that. I'm in quite a similar situation. Abt to ttc, but doc suspect my end is back and got worse. So not sure how my fertility will be affected. Ben having pain and passing out blood. So gonna go for more detailed checks. Told my hb I give up. If I'm not meant to have any child that's it. Not going to plan so much, try so hard. Now I start jogging again. In teh past I listen to doc to not jog as it might affect ttc, but now, I think no point trying too hard.
coralmarine
Active Member
Hi Jo,
One of my gynae advise against jogging as he says that affect ovulation cycle. I did not ask him for details. Just listened to him that time.
One of my gynae advise against jogging as he says that affect ovulation cycle. I did not ask him for details. Just listened to him that time.
Hi reyesmommy, my hubby and I used to be caught up with alot of plans... about what we want, etc. We knew there will be many things beyond our control but we went throuh the toughest experience when we lost our 1st baby. No doubt we still cry today but we really learnt what love means. Through this, we have been inspired by couples we know who adopted children (and Down's children) even when they already have 2 or more children of their own. Even as we are now expecting our 2nd baby, we are open to the idea of adopting children in the future. When ppl ask us how many children we have, we are always proud to say 2! One little saint in heaven and one inside. Keep on praying and God will bless you with something better in his time. Afterall, God sends special children to special parents. He has special plans for you so look forward to the future.
Coral and Jo, jogging does affect the ovulation cycle as the adrenalin from jogging causes irregular cycles and hence, it makes it more difficult to spot your ovulation day (if you are used to estimating when it is). You can try other sports like swimming as they don't affect the ovulation cycle. Have you tried Natural Family Planning (NFP) using Billings method? It's a simple, accurate and effective way to chart your cycles and find your ovulation day for regular and irregular cycles. You can find the info at http://www.billings-centre.ab.ca/ on how to avoid or achieve pregnancy. You may also want to consult your gynae about NFP centres where they teach you how to chart. Don't lose heart.
Coral and Jo, jogging does affect the ovulation cycle as the adrenalin from jogging causes irregular cycles and hence, it makes it more difficult to spot your ovulation day (if you are used to estimating when it is). You can try other sports like swimming as they don't affect the ovulation cycle.
Have you tried Natural Family Planning (NFP) using Billings method? It's a simple, accurate and effective way to chart your cycles and find your ovulation day for regular and irregular cycles. You can find the info at http://www.billings-centre.ab.ca/ on how to avoid or achieve pregnancy. You may also want to consult your gynae about NFP centres where they teach you how to chart. Don't lose heart. coralmarine
Active Member
Thanks Joan. I'll check out the site. Any idea if cycling is the same as jogging?