As long as paid $25 to liase Bulk Purchase, I can mark up the price???

The key issue here is not about making profits.

The problem is about cheating. Like selling fake branded goods. If Polo Ralph Lauren knew that this forum is selling their imitation goods openly, they may take legal action against this forum.

Then there are organizers who do not deliver what they promise. Or those who simply disappear with the money.

Bulk Purchase organized over the internet carries too much risk. Even if there are people who say they don't mind being cheated, it will still hurt the reputation of this forum in the long run.
 


Jolene,
Glad that they are ordering through your 'friend' now. I'm sure hundreds of other mothers here would love to have her help. That includes me. Mind PMing me her details so that I can contact her?

Tamarind,
In fact, i totally agree with you about the imitation goods. As for the mothers going to disappear with money, I guess Chin Leng had it under controlled. Cos my friend whom had a business going tried to organize a BP, had tried to register to be in the BP thread, was rejected flatly in her face.
 
Hi Mrs Teo

Me too ordering from my "friend" since spring till now my friend is a FTWM with Kids and no helper at all ...
happy.gif
 
Quoted By Mrs Teo

Jolene,
Glad that they are ordering through your 'friend' now. I'm sure hundreds of other mothers here would love to have her help. That includes me. Mind PMing me her details so that I can contact her?


Hmmm for Hundreds???? I dont think so leh.. she is not into business.. Cos she herself also bout alots too..hahhaha think each of us we got at least 30 pcs of top nt including the skirts and pants hor from e webby

Why not you PM me ??

Thank you
 
Mrs Teo,
I'm not sure if I understood you correctly but I shall take it that you mean "Why is a successful BP considered a business listing but not an unsuccessful BP?"

It doesn't matter if the BP is successful or unsuccessful. So long as the BP organiser has the intention to charge for his/her service and mark up the prices, it should be considered a business listing. In fact, these unsuccessful BPs (under disguise) are depriving the forum owner of advertising fees. Imagine this scenario -

If the BP is not successful this week, no cost incurred. But the same person can post another similar BP next week. And if it's successful, he/she needs to pay only the S$25 for this week.

If this is acceptable, why should anybody bother to be registered under Business and pay every week?

And looking from another angle, what entails a business? Doesn't a business person buy items in bulk and charge higher prices for his/her service/overheads etc? So what difference does it make for an organiser who does the exact thing in Bulk Purchase section? Shouldn't it also be considered a business listing?

As I said earlier on, nobody is stopping the poorer souls (as from your description) from earning pocket money. But just do it at the correct platform. Another analogy similar to yours - Does it mean it's alright for people to peddle illegally on the street just b'cos they are financially poorer?
 
The definition of Bulk Purchase is unclear. Perhaps, Chin Leng and the moderators would like to make it more clear cut? From what I gathered, there's a few definitions to Bulk Purchase.

- for like-minded forumers to collate orders and get cheaper prices through bulk ordering. No markup in prices cos everybody benefits. The organiser wants something and willing to spend the effort to organise one that benefits others and himself/herself.

- for like-minded forumers to collate orders and get cheaper prices through bulk ordering. But the organiser would like some token sum for his/her effort/service. It would be nice if such organisers could state upfront on the extra he/she is collecting. At least interested parties know and is comfortable with what they are going to pay for.

- for those who treat BP section as a Pay-As-You-Earn business platform. They only need to pay for the listing fee when the BP is successful.

I agree with Tamarind that Chin Leng has to look into this asap. There's been an increasingly number of problems in the BP section, ranging from not getting what they ordered to paying for fake goods unknowingly. I'm not sure if these could be considered as criminal breaches. If it does and the forum still allows the BP section to function, then the forum might get itself into trouble with the law.
 
Why are there alternate meanings to the phase 'Bulk Purchase'? Look anywhere for its explanation and there's only one; lower in unit price in general.

Actually BP organisers do 'profit' from their efforts. Most of the purchases are through credit cards and every transaction earns points. Through these, they can exchange the points for lots of things. They do benefit but not through monetary.

If the person really wants to make money through BPs, why don't they just go through other channels instead of doing it here where they are not supposed to! Think people just want to maximise their returns at the expense of the web owner.

Kudos to those BP organisers who do not mark up their prices!!!
 
sad.gif


So sad if BP thread is closed down. Really enjoy quite a number of savings there.

How about we suggest that Chin Leng collect membership fees from those ppl whom will be organizing BP? Still a loophole hor? Or only business thread ppl can organize spree? Aiyo.... head big big thinking of what to do lei.
 
angeline,
ni hao! i think got loopholes lah... difficult to control but I think it is fun and also addictive to buy from BP. Can save on freight also... so in the end up to buyers to calculate whether they are saving or losing more money.
 
Missylan,
You preggie woman go sleep la. Stay up so late for what?!!! Ya lor... difficult to control. Saw the BP for the POlo before too. It was terrible. Haiz... leave it up to Chin Leng la.
 
if i recalled correctly, i saw some where on e forum tt when BPs r free, many biz comps hv made use of e BP sect to do their biz, thus increasing e load on SMH's server/network, which is not fair for SMH to pay for all these extra loads while e biz comps r earning at SMH's expense, tt's y $25 listing fee has been imposed & even biz comps can do BP here. for these biz comps, when they do BPs, say 20% off their usual price, they still earn & we as consumers, do benefit fr e discounted price which we can't get if we were to just buy 1 or 2. if biz comps r allowed, y then do we target on e individuals who r able to negotiate lower price if we meet moq & they earn a bit to cover e BP listing fees & time/effort puts in? unless there's a correlation btwn business listing & BP, meaning a biz comp must register themselves under business listing b4 they r allowed to do BP.
 
jolene koh, initially i aso thot buying fr BPs can save $$ but is not true. i bought something fr bb einstein BPs b4 but to my disappointment, i recently found a website - selling much much cheaper for many of e items selling in e BPs here. for e item tt i bought, even if i add-on e delivery fee of $6, it's still cheaper. i wonder where do e organisers get their supplies from? if they just buy fr supplier like wonderbox & sells to us w a premium added on, then i tink it's not correct. so i completely lose faith in e BPs here, not buying anymore. like 1 of my fellow mummies said "BP = benefit person (e person doing e BP)." having said this, i do reckon tt there r some BPs tt offer lower price than outside mkt.
 
Hi all,

Allow me to go back into the history on why a fee is collected for organising BP.

Prior to the charging of BP fees, there were actually already many BPs organised and were making money. Of course, there were also many genuine BPs organised by members with the sole intention of buying items in bulk to bring the cost down. However, as the forum become more popular, inevitably, there would be more people trying to make money from the forum due to the high traffic here.

Before the charging of BP fees, we had to spend a lot of time looking through the BP threads and investigate the suspected BPs. When we found a BP that is making money, we would suspend the account of the user. These would result in a few scenarios:

<font color="0000ff">1. The user would just register another account and start again.

2. The user would accuse us of being unfair, banning them and not others. (Honestly, how can we have the resources to catch all?)

3. The user said they are making only a few dollars and that cannot be considered as a business. (I have a different view on this)</font>

Every day, we would spend a lot of time just trying to respond to emails of users whose account were suspended and members arguing their case. Many a times, they don't agree with our defintions and how we have decided to run the forum. The email "conversations" would go on almost endlessly.

Finally, we decided that we should spend more time in developing the portal instead of just 'policing' the forum.

That is when we came out with the idea of charging a BP listing fee. The reasons are as follows:

<font color="0000ff">1. As long as a BP fee is charged, we longer need to differentiate whether the BP is for business or not. We simply do not have the capacity otherwise.

2. By charging a BP listing fee, we can indirectly reduce the number of BP organised. When it was free and the marketplace was not restricted, everyday, many BPs are created without any care. Some were by business owners repeatedly making money by organising BPs here.

3. By charging a listing fee, we don't have to totally close down BP as there were genuine BPs.

4. We allow refunding of unsuccessful BPs so that there will be no risk to any mums organising genuine BPs.</font>

In reality, there is no perfect solution but the best possible solution. No matter what we decided, it'll not satisfy everyone but we try to satisfy most.

Even for our stock exchange which is highly regulated, frauds can still happen. Ultimately, as some of the mothers here have said, it is really up to the buyers to decide.

Regards,
Chin Leng.
 
Hi all,

Just to add. We actually have plans to introduce some new measures to address some of the issues raised here. But we hope to do it when we have successfully migrated the forum to a new server.

Regards,
Chin Leng.
 
hi chin leng,

understand tt u dun hv enough resources to police e forum but if pp highlight to u tt certain BPs r charging much higher prices compared to other sources, or worse still, e BPs r selling fake items, will any action be taken?

i really appreciate wat u & ur team r doing, w/out u all, we wun hv e forum. so i thank u all for e efforts put in.
 
well,i guess it takes two hands to clap.what we can do is to help out with the mummies here like if you know that you can get cheaper or better deal or somewhere is selling the same things where you don;t have to wait up for 2-3 weeks of shipment.juz inform them and if they still choose to go ahead with their bps, by all means. for example, i saw this place selling the yummy cake towels in causeway point which look similar to one of the bp's items here. i posted a note informing them that this store has ready stocks. so it is up to individuals liao.....hehehe....then again peace to the organizer. i mean well.
 
Hi Bunnybluey,

I believe in having an open market. Personally, the best way is to let the buyers make their own decisions. We can't dictate the prices as different organisers have different cost structure and may have obtained their items from different source. We can't possibly scrutinise the cost structure of all BP highlighted. Some mummies here organised BP with the price which they believed were the lowest given by their source. If a competing supplier counters by lowering their selling price and organised a BP here, the first mummy may seem to be making huge profit when she may not be making any profit at all. It would have simply be an unfortunate situation for the mummy. In some occasions, what is unfair price to a buyer is actually a fair price to another buyer. Therefore, as this is an open forum, it is best to leave it to both the buyers and sellers.

When we receive feedbacks highlighting different or higher prices, we also have to be wary that it may be sent by competing supplier or business owner to undermine the current BP. As there isn't the best way for us to determine the best price of any selling items, we think it is best to leave it to market forces (buyers and sellers) to self-regulate.

Regarding the selling of fake items, we totally disallow it. That is why when we see threads with subject heading "non-authentic", the threads will be removed immediately. But other than that, as we don't have the expertise in identifying fakes, we won't know if an organiser is selling genuine or fake items. When we receive feedbacks that if a BP organiser is selling fakes, we'll check with the organiser and verify with them. If the organisers are not sure of the authenticity of the items, we would encourage them to cancel the BP. There are also BP where we receive feedback that the items could be fake but when we check with the organisers and they assure us that it is the authentic item, we'll have to leave it as that because it becomes a case of words against words.

Ultimately, in many cases, as in the real world, it is "caveat emptor", the buyers will have to make their own purchasing decisions.

Regards,
Chin Leng.
 
Thanks Chin Leng. I guess we just have to do our homework before committing our purchase in e BPs here.
 
Would the problem be resolved if the thread is simply renamed? Instead of BP, called it "Trading Post"? , "Open Marketplace"? "Sales"?

Combine the biz thread with the BP thread?

I guess the confusion is just with the name "BP", rename it and we can continue our shopping?
 
I agree that nowadays BP prices are definitely not attractive anymore.

I see some sellers use the word "BP" but her price is the same as her normal selling price. Or worst, some are more expensive than you can get outside.

I would agree the close down the BP thread.
 
It's diff for BP prices to be attractive nowadays cos even if the supplier is giving good rate, the organise would mark up until its' just little below normal price (I mean why not? since pple are buying and one got to do coordination work...).
 
I am a regular supporter in the BP.
Cos i always thought that thru there,i am able to get the best 'cheap' deal.
luckily today come across to this thread,i am so shocked to see a bag that i had bot for $25 to have cost $13 somemore with free shipment...really heartpain...
thot can get good bargain but in the end i pay more..

but at least thru this forum,i had known alot of mummies
happy.gif
 
Hi, then do you think its fair for buyers to share the $25 BP fees so that we can enjoy the cheap price..if it is a genuine BP of course? If not, genuine organisers will lugi fr organising ie the tedious logistics and still need to absorb the BP fees etc..

If agree to share to BP fees among the buyers, then the next headache is, how to split leh? per person or based on number of items bought?? ;p
 
hi mummies...

i just came across a organizer charging a hair treatment steamer at $20 whereas i saw it only selling at $8.90 on another local spree website. i really feel heartpain for those mummies who bought the steamer.
Hope i'm not KPO to bring up this...
 
Hi everyone,
Just for your info, I have started organising sprees as well not entirely for profit cos I love helping people get their items cheaper and faster. I myself wants it too. But after organising 2 sprees without profit at all last time, I find it really very tough. Maybe cos I always try to get all the items out fast. So for now, I charge a small $0.50/item charge when I organise sprees in which I find reasonable for my effort.
 
Helen,
Personally to me, I felt per item $0.50 might be quite expensive depending on what spree u organise.

For eg, if u organise a e.l.f spree, per item cost only US$1 and thus, it will make ur per item cost very expensive and in fact, will be earning high "profit".... cos per spree is about 100-150 orders...

Normally, people charge S$0.20 to S$0.50 for postage and handling fee in overseas spree. But it is on total items and not per item.
happy.gif
 
Hi Ocean,
Thanks. Noted. I think for those that I need a lot of orders, above 50pcs, will choose to charge one amount for all orders from one person. Thanks for your feedback.
 
Helen,
i think for spree, is suppose to be NON-PROFITABLE.
If u are charging a fee, am afraid that your account may get suspended.
 
mrswee (helen80),
The Moderators have already said any amt of handling charge/fees is NOT allowed in Overseas Spree section. If you want to charge handling fees, you have to post in the Bulk Purchase section and pay for the thread.
 
But then, you see many are charging handling fee in the overseas BP thread now. If this is not allowed, why they are not deleted??
 
kanec,
which Overseas Spree are charging handling fee? You should highlight to the Moderators then.

But hor, remember handling fees is different from envelope/packing materials/scotch tape costs. Those are ok lah coz those things are not free, not fair to ask organiser to pay.
 
Hi Helen,
I think it's not for us to feedback whether the amt is reasonable or not, but rather you should make known to the pple joining your spree abt the extra cost and they'll join if they think it's reasonable and not join otherwise (i.e. an informed-choice).

However note that charging extra are not allow in oversea spree. Need to pay and conduct in the Bulk Purchase thread if want to charge extra. I agree that it's tough for you and others to organise sprees. But it's even tougher for ChinLeng and his group to maintain the oversea spree threads (which is free) not to mention this whole forum...

On the other hand, I suppose postage related charges are OK (eg. stamp + 20ct for new env).
 
Hi everyone,
Thanks for the feedback. Have noted what you mean and decided that if wants to have a handling charge to post in bulk purchase instead. Thanks once again.
 
i think,its because of the demand that exist which makes bp more active.as in more ppl comiing in to organise with a fee of $25.

So i agree with some mum who said that it is the willingness &amp; ablilty of purchasing power of mum,
realy depends i think.because maybe some mum dun have so much time to surft &amp; dig for a better bargain?

so as long as its cheaper than the retail price we get outside,many will join the bp.

because things are getting really expensive here;x

thats what i think
 
Like what someone mentioned above, if a potential buyer feels the price is reasonable, that's all that matters, I feel.

I'm perfectly fine with the idea that mums are profiting from the bps; as a culture, we really have to get used to the idea that someone's time is precious -- and product sourcing, dealing with vendors, coordinating orders and serving "customers" is a time-consuming process.

On the flipside, I would expect these bp holders to conduct themselves like stores; to reply to messages promptly and politely, have return/exchange policies in place and so on.

As for going against the true definition of "bulk purchase", I wouldn't worry about it. Just to give a parallel example -- blogs were never meant to online diaries, but rather, logs of interesting weblinks that one wanted to share with friends. I for one certainly wouldn't want to blog that way.

Anyways, perhaps a "buyer beware" warning on the main page of the bp section would suffice?
 
i dunno if this is the right place to post.. but well, just wanna share this..

initially, i am thinking of buying one 'agnes b' bag in one of the bp, but has still been deciding whether i shd as the price is quite steel.. then i happened to find the same bag at the market in my neighbourhood where these ppl came to sell outside the store (kinda along the street) like once or twice a week.

i checked the bag.. same design.. material of the bag looks fine to me.. and most importantly, it's selling much more cheaper. bp organizer selling this bag @ $68.00

here's some of the pics of the bag (excuse me for the poor images as i have taken them with a cam haha ^^;;)

1430346.jpg


1430347.jpg


to be frank, i have paid $40 for this bag.. and the seller honestly told me tat it's from china! but she doesnt carry lots quantity, probably just 1-2 bags per design! as wat i said, i am satisfied with its workmanship and design, so i am willing to pay this price. i have also checked if i buy the same bag from 'Taobao' including shipping cost, it would maybe cost around $25.00!! but looking at the price all those bp organizers have charged the mummies here, we cant imagine how much profit they have made!

i myself have joined a few bps before.. not really into authenticity.. as long i like the items.. the design.. i will join and buy!

anyway, as some of the mummies have stated.. it's the buyers willingness whether they wanna join the bp.. nobody takes a gun and force them to do so hehe

dun mean to offend anybody.. just for sharing!

cheers
happy.gif
 
thanks chris ang!

yes, most things on BPs are direct from China. U name it, they've got it! Carters, Gap, "branded" bags, and even Japanese bags &amp; clothes... I've relocated to Shanghai that's why I see all these SAME stuffs now (that I saw on BPs when I was in Spore)...and I was shocked!!! Coz I didnt shop for these kids stuffs until I had my baby.

That's why a few weeks ago, I thought of organising a BP to mummies who are also keen in the things I like and I wanna buy myself (very important to me). Plus, I also can make a bit of $ out of it. LOL! I guess coordinating things over here will also prevent any hiccups in the overseas postage. However, the controversial in that BP thread really gave me 2nd thoughts...and I'm thankful. Phew! ;p
 
No offense to anyone.

@Mrs Teo, quoting you:
I personally know one of the organizer of sprees here. She make little profit and have to do big projects to get the spree going. Taking orders, noting down emails, taking down address, calling supplier, ordering the 'CORRECT' items, risking T/T ing over the money over.... Answering to all emails..... tending to her baby..... then when goods arrive, unpack, matching, wrapping the items for post, arranging to meet up, smsing... emailing.... making sure all items are in good order. Whole house in a mess. Lost of sleep most importantly. What for? Cos she's forced to be a SAHM with no ILs nor parents. Hubby barely earn enough to sustain both of them. And she's only a secondary cert holder. All these hard work for a salary much lesser than an admin clerk!!!

So? What are you trying to derive here? With your logic are you saying that it's right to practically "cheat" on people because you're 1. poor/financially in need of help or 2. putting in efforts to perfectionize the cheat? Funny thing is when some mummies voice it out to "enlighten" those who are unaware of such things, you point fingers at them blaming them even HELLO?

Personally, i have friends who set up their own online websites to sell clothes, bags, etc, where they make 100% profit or more from each piece of clothes they're selling. Many BPs organized are toughly overprice even though they claim that this is the "best and lowest" price possible. Occasionally it's fine with people who doesn't mind paying more for the sake of convenience, but what about those SAHM who sincerely thought it's cheaper and buy from them to save some $$. What about the people hosting the forum? All these are money.
 
Vinconia,

Hmmmm.... Hello???? Did I say those whom are organizing BPs are cheats?! Please enlighten me on which part of my sentence says that?!!!!!

For your information, with Agnes B sort of mark up, 300% over the cost price, is grossly UNACCEPTABLE! Please! It happened after I posted! I never supported FAKE branded goods! I went around questioning them to prove me authencity by guiding me to the nearest boutique to have a view of the real item! Since it's over-run. Does that make me in supporting them into becoming cheats?!

<font color="ff6000">However, no one bother to reply me too.</font>

By the way, can you please enlighten me. What is the meaning of cheat in your own dictionary?!

From my point, there are many mothers out there who are fully aware that the particular design of a certain brand doesn't even exist at all! Just take a look into the websites and they'll know! But they still blindly purchase it. It's all because they are brand conscious! Not because of they are going for the authencity! Can you deny that?! Are they the ones whom had supported those BP organizers to boldly sell non-authentic items?! And not me?!!!!!

The internet is a place loaded full with informations. That is what making the retail shops harder to earn their keep. Cos of the easily attainable informations that allows all these BPs to go on! To tell me, the SAHM can surf into the forum and purchase and not to know further informations about the products? How much will I believe it?! Don't you know that many of them are simply buying cos of CONVENIENCE sake?!!!

So, my sentence just summarizes the above. My friend is trying to cash in on the convenience that other mothers are looking for. And NOT OUT TO CHEAT! Please get the facts clear!
 
Sheesh, defensively counterargueing something which isn't making sense in the first place. Furthermore, it's plain silly to turn this into a flame post.

FYI there are many forum users out there who are not THAT resourceful/free to check up few hours on an item before purchasing; many believe that those organizing BPs are genuinely sharing cheaper deals out there.

As for clarification if you're in dire needs of it, i said "Cheat", in case you have another definition of it derived from yourself or whatever it may be, many of these BP organizations (not sure if it's the case of your friend or w/e) do know that the stuffs are fake, yet they try to deceive people by saying it's "authenticity guaranteed by my supplier". If someone is trying to earn extra bucks off others' trust, if it's not to deceive, state so; many BP organizers simply "make believe that stuffs are real/cheaper" even though they know it's fake and jack up prices.

I've bought stuffs from some BPs as well for the sake of convenience thus i do not mind it sometimes, but do remember that there're also many out who does and are unaware of such trickery going on!
 
<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

personally know one of the organizer of sprees here. She make little profit and have to do big projects to get the spree going. Taking orders, noting down emails, taking down address, calling supplier, ordering the 'CORRECT' items, risking T/T ing over the money over.... Answering to all emails..... tending to her baby..... then when goods arrive, unpack, matching, wrapping the items for post, arranging to meet up, smsing... emailing.... making sure all items are in good order. Whole house in a mess. Lost of sleep most importantly. What for? Cos she's forced to be a SAHM with no ILs nor parents. Hubby barely earn enough to sustain both of them. And she's only a secondary cert holder. All these hard work for a salary much lesser than an admin clerk!!! <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Please enlighten me. On which part of the sentence above says that I'm encouraging cheats in the making?

By the way, if you seriously think that they are cheats, why not you report them to police and not complain around here? I'm sure the police will love you. Those BP organizers whom you had labelled as cheats would have loved you too!
 
Unnecessary for such aggression. If someone cheated me, obviously I'll report them with transaction details i have. Similarly, I've not pin pointed on any BP organizers who are deceiving people. Morally it's wrong to abuse people's trust. Want profit, state the product's correct details and nature (authentic or not, quality and etc). Because of such black sheeps laying around, many organizers that genuinely wanna share are doubted.

The more u say, the more it contradicts; maybe you'd like to enlighten me instead :p

My friend is trying to cash in on the convenience that other mothers are looking for. And NOT OUT TO CHEAT! Please get the facts clear!
Cash in on the convenience of other mothers looking for it but not actually telling them she's making profit out of them? Well, i don't know what product we're talking of it, and how "little" is the profit you're referring to. There're some i've bought from who are really nice people and they've been pretty clear cut with the transaction process (eg, if someone is selling cheaper than them etc); but many out there simply claim that they've got cheap deals and mislead people to buy their products with jack up prices.
 
Hi there,

I also always think that bp price is the best price compare to market price, but end up, it doesn't... the bp organiser marked up more than 25% to the baby enstein flash cards!!!! It give me a shock of my life when I found out. Gosh! I think is really rediculous.

Frankly, to all the hard work and effort and time that the bp orgainser are contributing, I don't mind paying 10% MORE from the products cost, but please dont' tell me that the price offered here are even HIGHER than kinokuniya/times/BORDER bookshop which they have already marked up their prices... rite?
 
I think Mrs Teo does <u>not</u> imply that it is right for BP organizers to cheat. She was only describing her friend's hard work.

The key point here is that BP organizers must admit that they make a profit out of the BPs. I think it is absolutely fine to make a profit. But it will be better if they are more transparent about it, and state up front how much profit they are earning. Better to do this, then for the others to find out later and feel that they are being cheated.

For example, in the overseas spree section, even though the exchange rate is now about 1.40, many organizers are fixing at 1.45 - 1.48. Many people are still participating in those sprees of higher exchange rate, and no one complains. Because they know exactly how much more they are paying.

But then again, I often go and buy clothes at the shops, then later found out that the same piece of clothing was discounted for 20%-50% of the price. So how much profit are these shops earning ? Buying from BPs is the same as buying from shops. People should <u>stop</u> to believe that BPs in this forum definitely give lower prices.
 


Hi tamarind,

agree.. really have to be careful on BPs...
In the past before having the $25 thread fees, i feel that the BPs holding in the past are more like a BPs.. there is really savings for mummies .unlike nowadays ... sigh...
sad.gif


just have to be careful.. and eyes have to be open BIG..
happy.gif
 

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